In the wake of Wednesday’s somewhat broad ranging thread, a friend suggested to me yesterday that there is a fundamental difference between a small business owner and an entrepreneur.
Speaking personally, I’ve never seen any difference between the two. It seems to me that I'm both. Is there a difference, and if so, what is it?
As a corollary: I’ve accepted it as axiomatic that using the historic business district downtown as it was originally built to be used (not necessarily with the same mix of businesses, given changing times) is fitting and proper. Can this be reasonably construed as a threat to some doing business there, perhaps because they are small business owners but somehow not entrepreneurs?
After all, the recent LEO article included quotes from downtown furniture dealer Todd Coleman, who it would seem has a different view of the unfolding renaissance and his place in it. If not, then why would he say that he's considered running for mayor?
And: Why do people commonly say there’ll be too many bars and restaurants, but no one says there are too many salons? There are quite a few salons, aren’t there? Are these not subject to the same start-up vicissitudes as the bars? Is it lingering bitterness at the riverfront 3-way alcohol option? Is that bitterness justified? Won't some of the drinkers have their hair cut and visit the antique shop?
I remain surprised that the discussion here Wednesday took the turn it did. Some wounds came open. It is understandable that there’ll always be complaints for the sake of complaining – in all times, in all places.
When it comes to downtown attitudes, what's, and where’s, the beef?
Feel free to let me have it ... again.
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71 comments:
Is it lingering bitterness at the riverfront 3-way alcohol option?
That's probably some of it.
On a more fundamental level, people envy success and fear change. You and the other new blood downtown represent both.
I consider any such resentment as a vestige of the slowly-eroding cultural and economic status quo in New Albany.
If it were me, I would offer a hand to help the existing business owners join me on the bandwagon. If they refused the ride, I'd smile and wave goodbye.
Why Roger, you no good SOB...:)
No wounds were opened on this end. I think you should be able to argue topics passionately without holding resentment. As proof of this, I think you should set the example by comping me some brewskies.
Back to the topic. Why some are afraid of a basically a bar district, is because they fear the possible consequences. Realistically, cops aren't called to barbershops because two women had too many locks cutoff. Not saying everybody who goes out for a drink and dinner ends up in a fight, but I like to.
Second, some are just morally opposed to drinking, and honestly no one can deny that alcoholism and drunk driving deaths are big problems in our country. You are right in your opinion, and they are right in theirs. Why? Because this matter is completely subjective. You and I might like a street with nothing but three-ways, some like a simple, quiet city. They'd rather have a street with a couple of nice, family-type restaurants. Louisville has more bars and such than you can shake a stick at, but their budget still sucks. So it's kind of hard to say that having those establishments benefits the city as a whole. Yes, it benefits some, but it doesn't do much in terms of job creation and tax revenue locally. On the other hand, people should be able in a democracy to have a drink somewhere if they'd like. But how many is too many? I don't know. I've driven by several bars on weeknights that were virtually empty. Hopefully that can change, because I'm not interested in seeing anybody fail. But realistically again, I don't know that it will. I don't know if there's enough traffic here to support that many businesses right now.
My argument has nothing to do with who opens here and where. It's a free enterprise and if you can make it work, props to you. My point was that Southern Indiana is much more important to maintaining businesses than Louisville is. New Albany is your flour and butter, Louisville is your icing.
By the way, Mike Ladd just told me the first set of traffic island lights along Market were lit last night. Check 'em out tonight if you get a chance, I hear they're marvelous.
Louisville has more bars and such than you can shake a stick at, but their budget still sucks. So it's kind of hard to say that having those establishments benefits the city as a whole. Yes, it benefits some, but it doesn't do much in terms of job creation and tax revenue locally.
Many areas of Louisville with strong restaurant and bar scenes are surrounded by thriving neighborhoods, owing to the immediate proximity of those scenes.
Before Bardstown Road developed the way it did, much of the surrounding residential area was in decline with little return on investment in terms of property values and tax revenue. The same is true of the Frankfort Avenue area and, more recently, the East Market area.
Walkable neighborhoods are much more attractive with something to walk to. My family lives where it does precisely because of the proximity to the downtown business district.
Our quality of life has improved a great deal since moving here largely because of the restaurants and bars. They have economic value not just as entertainment venues but as places of community and social development. I don't think we're at all unique in feeling that way- locally, nationally, or internationally.
A bit off topic. Sorry.
So it's kind of hard to say that having those establishments benefits the city as a whole. Yes, it benefits some, but it doesn't do much in terms of job creation and tax revenue locally.
Disagree. It's not about the economic revenue from a "bar district." It's about having ammenities that attract and retain talented people to live in and around the city. BSB does that. The YMCA does that. Historic districts do that. The Winery does that. Wick's Pizza does that. Bike lanes do that. The Greenway does that. The farmers market does that. And so on.
It's the Richard Florida creative class argument we've been discussing here since 2004, and it applies to Lou metro region as a whole, not just New Albany.
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Back to the original topic - Daniel, have you heard anyone complain about New Albany turning into a seedy bar district? I haven't heard that, but it wouldn't surprise me. BSB, the Winery, Conner's Place, Studio's, and The Windsor Bar are hardly seedy. In fact, most of them are family friendly, depending on your defintion of family and friendly.
Have I sensed any resentment?
A little, but mostly from those who don't participate much in the community and social development mentioned above.
oops...and independent booksellers do that, too.
Having maintained an office in downtown N.A. for the last 23 years, my beef has always been with the lack of viable establishments here. And yes, I'm talking primarily about restaurants and bars.
Colleagues and clients routinely come into town, and there has been no good place to take them. I've always hated having to get in my car and drive to another city (and/or state) to experience a unique and compelling atmosphere. Thanks to Roger and others like him, that is changing at last.
Agreed.
There are lots of places that do that. I just referenced bars and restaurants to a specific passage.
Places that encourage gathering and sharing are important, no matter what they sell. Our economy is becoming more social everyday, that is, based on having and facilitating relationships more than some other factors.
People who get that will fit into the "new" downtown situation well. Those that don't might not.
And...that circles back to my original point. Places like BSB threaten the existing folks on some level because of what they represent, which goes beyond the fact that they serve alcohol.
The old locals are going to LOVE Fringe Fest II. Good thing this isn't Iran.
I admit, I couldnt run a for profit business to save my life at this point.
And I know this is slightly off topic, but I LOVE the restaurants and bars that have opened in that district.
It is so refreshing to see friends and families sitting out on the side walk tables, mingling, talking, laughing and enjoying themselves.
From Studios, to Conners, to BSB,and the winery, these are members of our community getting together after work spending their hard earned money, in our community.
I say kudos to the business owners, for taking a stake in the future of downtown, I find it both refreshing, yet frustrating that it is getting harder to find a parking space down there!
If other business owners are resentful of the success of the "new blood" then so be, I hope there is plenty to be jealious about!
When someone says, “too many bars,” maybe they mean, “not enough retail or upper story housing to balance out the mix.”
Technically, there probably is a difference between an entrepreneur and a small business owner. I think the differences that are coming up, though, are more involved than that. Type of business, growth potential, growth "wanted"(maybe the difference between SB & ENT)and others that I can't think of, off the top of my head.
A small bakery(type)may be able to make a decent living in just a portion of New Albany. Has no plans and doesn't "want" to get bigger or have more stores. Nothing wrong with any that. As it pertains to the LEO discussion, this bakery couldn't have cared less about the article. Would be right up Daniels alley. 99+% local business. There many other businesses that could be used in this example. Your local $1.00 long-neck beer joint.(please, I'm not denigrating) Small pawn shop. Ice cream parlor.
I don't know anything about antiques or the business but the letter writer said that they drew business from several states. I would think that the LEO article would have been helpful to them even though they weren't mentioned by name. They certainly weren't harmed.
Schmitt Furniture has sold and marketed for years to the entire METRO area. LEO article result for them--good.
Roger and his partners. Specialty product(s) with not wide appeal(as in total population). Has grown and wants to grow. Expanding into other areas(wholesale distribution of their products). LEO article very helpful.
None of the businesses actually get hurt by metro exposure. May even gain a little business. I've shown two examples that would not survive without metro exposure.
Bluegill wrote, "... the LEO cover story is arguably the most important single piece of media to be produced about New Albany in some years."
Please note(again)it does not say "ever". Also note it does say "arguably" and "single piece".
Not daily or overall. Of course the Tribune "wins" on those points.
From a business, mainly retail, standpoint it is hard to argue with Bluegill's point. Well, I guess not, since there were 99 posts.
Meatbe, Bluegill, Brandon, Christopher all posted reasons above that I was thinking about when I suggested that Daniel go out to IUS.
Agree with Meatbe. I've owned a home in New Albany's downtown for 25 years, 15 of them downtown. There have been so few places to walk to, to take out of town relatives or customers to for dinner or drinks. That's really changing now, and I am pretty happy about it.
Oh, and Daniel, don't discount the "icing" too much. That's what allows discretionary spending. Like a subscription to a daily newspaper or buying a *blank* from a vendor that advertises in said newspaper.
er, 25 years in New Albany, 15 downtown. Got an extra 'downtown' in there, channeling Petula Clark today.
One of my business school professors once made this distinction: An entrepreneur is interested in maximizing profit while a small business owner is interested in the independence of self-employment. I did not find useful his either/or dichotomy; many people starting their own businesses are motivated, to varying degrees, by both profit and independence. If you’re interested in semantics, I think the distinction is important only if you’re authoring an entry in the OED. Otherwise, if you want to clarify a businessperson’s possible motives, just say so.
"It's not about the economic revenue from a "bar district." It's about having ammenities that attract and retain talented people to live in and around the city. BSB does that. The YMCA does that. Historic districts do that. The Winery does that. Wick's Pizza does that. Bike lanes do that. The Greenway does that. The farmers market does that. And so on."
But the argument was over bars, the Y and the Greenway, Farmer's Market...bike lanes are not bars and the Y draws more people downtown than any of the rest combined. The winery hasn't been in business long enough to really know what it will draw to downtown. Plus you're making the assumption that talented people all drink and ride bikes and look for those things before they move. While undoubtedly some do, some talented people don't drink and look for a place to live that's quiet with little traffic and white noise. I know those people first hand, they are my parents. Once again, it's just a subjective argument. With unemployment being what it is, people are going to be looking for bargains and wherever they can find gainful employment more than how close they are to Wick's.
And yes, I love as bluegill referenced being able to walk around Bardstown Road because of all the options, as I have a friend who lives close by. But I wouldn't want to live there, too much congestion for me.
Dan C, I think that your first comment brought up a good point!
I don't have a problem with the three-ways popping up, my husband enjoys the BSB and the craft beers being brought within stumbl-er walking distance from the house, but for me, a person who doesn't drink alcohol, they really don't offer me personally that much.
That doesn't mean I still don't see the value in them or won't visit them, but it does mean that I'd get even more excited if a children's boutique or camera store opened up shop downtown!
Ceece-
I'm trying to win the lottery!! ;)
I'm no economist, but if you want the research behind what attracts and retains various types of people, I suggest Richard Florida's works for a start - Rise of the Creative Class; Flight of the Creative Class; and Who's Your City.
The argument was over your comment about the economic impact of "bar districts." I was making a larger point about the economic impact of lifestyle ammenities, one of which is a bar district. I then gave examples of local and soon-to-be local ammenities to illustrate the point.
This is what I don't enjoy about blogging [arguing over what you are arguing about], but I'll take the good with the bad.
Much better to argue in person. With beverages.
Yeah Mark, I'm about ready to get some downtown lunch. You buying? Actually I guess I owe you. BTW, I'm waiting on a response from an IUS genius. Even if it doesn't look good for me, I'll post his response. i won't give their name though, as they may be ashamed to be associated with me.
I doubt if either one of us has much "icing" right now.
Here ya go
"I think bars and restaurants are very important...in terms of ameneties and quality of life. One of the problems in IN is their antiquated liquor licensing laws....they are insane. That would make a great story actually. I've been wanting to do research on this.
We are tied to Louisville....because of commuting patterns. But at the same time, we must also establish our own identity, and there are ways we can do that. If we establish our own identity/resiliency, then Louisville is the gravy....if you know what I mean. But Louisville is definitely important because many of our residents work there.
When it comes to a recession, then people are more concerned with stability. But there are things that we can do to increase stability or resiliency during a recession."
"Daniel should be given a six-figure salary and LEO should be burned"
OK I added that part on my own, whatever.
Though it didn’t happen over night, $1000 three-ways certainly helped attract restaurants downtown.
What could the city (or the UEA, of DNA, or county, etc.) do to similarly incentivize more non-bar establishments to move downtown?
There once was talk of making all downtown a “hot spot.” The plan, as I heard it, was for free unsecured access to be paid for by downtown business subscribers who need secured access. Would it work? I don’t know, but it sounds as good to me as just about anything else. The problem is that the particular internet vendor would be required to make a significant upfront investment without a guaranty that people would subscribe.
That just one thing that might help bring in the coffee shops, offices, and residents. What else?
Dan I want a cracker barrel. They make the best chicken and dumplings in the world. Can you make that happen?
If anything, I learned that no one knows how to spell amenities. (not "ammenties" like I spelled it, or "ameneties" like the IUS person spelled it.) I blame spellcheck and phonics education. ;)
I bet your IUS source drinks at Richos.
If you want a Cracker Barrel, improve the demographic data here. Our income numbers is what has held CB back so far. In 2011, when the 2010 census data comes out, you’ll definitely see more businesses realizing that downtown Louisville now is their kind of target market, much more so than in 2000. Statistically, has there been that much change in NA since 2000? I don’t know.
I drink at Richo's when I feel like overpaying for beer :)
What does that matter?
I've heard traffic counts have as much to do with it as income. You probably have better info on that than me.
We have better info on everything than you, Daniel. Can't you tell?
vbg
I drink at Richos when I feel like drinking the best beer in the world on draft. The fact that I can do so in New Albany is amazing and another reason I enjoy living here.
Better info...maybe. Better opinions, no way. In my opinion, my opinions are awesome.
You know what NA really needs? A big schmancy museum, a single a baseball team or maybe we can copy off newport and get an aquarium.
The aquarium didn’t just decide to go to Newport. The aquarium was looking at Ohio. Newport went out and marketed themselves. Plus, Newport talked eleven surrounding N. Ky. counties into lobbying Frankfort, asking for state incentives. I don’t know that anyone in NA has ever marketed the city to a cultural institution looking at moving to Louisville. Have So. Ind. counties worked together to get attention from Indy? Some day an opportunity will arise, it will arise without warning or fanfare. Will we be ready?
Someone, I think it was NAgirl, suggested an immigration cultural center, as NA was a hub for German and other immigrants. I love that idea. It would be a multi-state draw for sure, and it would justify a German-style gasthaus. Just sayin.
I’ve never been sanguine on the plain vanilla fire implements museum. Just about every city in the nation has a fireman’s museum, open a full four hours a week, not drawing in the crowds. But, to my knowledge, there is no national firefighter museum. I mean, Louisville put together $70M for the Mohammad Ali Center. I’m just saying, there’s a lot of people nationally who may be interested in a top rate museum. But that’s just one possibility; I’m sure there are better ideas.
How about a national Strip Club museum?
We could offer ROCK a cut on admissions just like they are asking for in Kentucky on license plates.
IN GOD WE TRUST. EVERYONE ELSE WE ID.
If I were the advertising manager at the Tribune, the next staff meeting would be damned interesting.
"If I were the advertising manager at the Tribune, the next staff meeting would be damned interesting."
Do explain.
Dan I think an aquarium might be a stretch, but why not a small baseball team down on the river? We're not Owensoboro, but they have one. Or a semi-pro basketball team or hockey team. Nothing draws like sports.
Speaking of museums, Al Goodman has a ton of tannery machinery and a vision for a museum. His property is very historic.
Do explain.
Nah.
Figures. Good thing I have my bases covered.
With AAA baseball right across the river, afraid it would be hard sell. Although I would like it.
Figures. Good thing I have my bases covered.
If anything unpredictable happens, would somebody please call? Thanks.
Like you being able to argue something without acting like you're five maybe?
My thoughts were based on context and potential outcomes. If you know any five-year-olds well versed in those areas, perhaps you could forward their resumes along.
I'm sure I can find plenty of 5-year-olds that are pretty understanding of your thoughts.
If anyone has their finger on the pulse of five-year-old thinking...
Are we back on the museum topic again or something?
No, but you do have a point. Goodman's museum idea is about that old.
You know how to cut to the heart of me Baxter. Making fun of a guy who opens up his wetlands for the public to tour and hike on free of charge, stay classy man.
My guess is that Coleman would be interested in the Mayor position whether or not he operated a downtown business. Citing his ownership of downtown buildings, I’m guessing, was a justification, not a motive. If there is a correlation between his ownership of downtown buildings and his desire to be mayor, it could stem as much from a desire to stop have the city on him for ordinance violations than anything else.
I'm not making fun of Al. I'm making fun of you. Nice story on his years old musueum idea. Last year.
Sorry about that. The story was this year.
And Dan's funny, too.
Yeah, I think there was like a paragraph in the story about that. It's called referencing. With your claims of journalistic fortitude, thought you'd understand. We'll just leave the blogging...i.e. whining about the same stuff day in and day out...up to you. Man you should be thankful, most of the time you get about 4 comments per post, glad to see I could help out the past couple of days.
I'll send you a press release next time. I'd hate for you to give up a by line.
You better get Roger to approve that for you first, you know you have to follow that chain of command.
My press release rewriting skills are pretty decent. Three years as a professional journalist, awards in two different states and about 20 in college. I might write something up on that tomorrow so you'll have something to link to that people will actually talk about.
Daniel says he won awards. Another person says he didn't. No more at eleven.
Don't you mean know more? I can get my mom to photocopy them to WLKY if needed, she's proud of her broke baby.
Look Jeff, I'm sorry for some of the things I've said. Not too proud about what I said about the Stemle guy getting fired, that was just childish and stupid. I also apologize to you if I've said anything that really offended you. I think you're an exceptionally smart guy, an asset to the community and a passionate truth seeker. We bumped heads on some issues here and got on some personal track of stupidity but I don't hold any grudges, well again except for Mark. Hope you'll accept my apology. Or we can keep going with the fifth grade cutdowns too if you'd like, I actually do have some decent mom jokes left in the tank.
No worries, man. I've been having fun the past hour or so. The dozens should be an Olympic sport.
Cool. See you Thursday night.
Come on, sailors, I was just becoming moist.
damn.
lol @ jon
What this blog needs to stop -
implosion definition
im·plo·sion (im plō′z̸hən) noun
an imploding; specif.
a bursting inward
Phonet. the sudden rush of air into the pharynx that occurs in the articulation of certain stops found esp. in some African languages the sound represented in English by the spelling “tsk” is produced by implosion
Jon: to date, by my humble estimation, your last was your single greatest (and it WAS great) contribution to the discourse in recent memory. ROFLOL. Oscar Wilde and his doppelganger, Chris Hitchens, don't hold a candle to you.
Huh, biggest Friday number in quite a while.
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