Forgotten AntiquesI understand feeling disappointed, but sorry, my only thought is: "You're soooo missing the point here."
I was just reading the June 17 LEO Weekly and was surprised to see the buildings of downtown New Albany featured. I was quite happy to see my building on the front of the magazine. However, I was quite disappointed after reading the article that the only business on the block that was not mentioned was the Antique Shop at 145 E. Market St.
Since Cary Stemle made it quite apparent that he did his homework about the businesses on the block that were no longer, let me add updated info that Mr. Stemle did not seem to obtain. First of all, the Little Chef Diner is currently closed. Second, the Antique Shop has survived through many other businesses in the downtown area that have failed. That shop is the second oldest business on the block still open.
A downtown revitalization needs more than bars and restaurants to survive. We bring in people from many different states for the quality of our merchandise. We have been a vital part of the rinse and repeat of downtown New Albany and would like to take this opportunity to express our distaste for your magazine and lack of good reporting.
Ketrina Jones & David P. Scott, Antiques Attic (145 E. Market St., New Albany)
Our metro alternative weekly finally catches wind of us and does a COVER STORY on New Albany, and what is useful about it isn't a line item calculation of who was mentioned and who was not; rather, it is the article fostering the positive notion that people should come to downtown New Albany and investigate the scene.
Not only is it inaccurate to suggest that Cary's failure to list every business located downtown constitutes bad reporting, it's plainly irrelevant, and more detrimentally, it plays into the single worst problem we have among business owners downtown: An absence of cooperation in collectively marketing the area. I wrote about this recently, suggesting ...
It isn’t about a single restaurant or bar downtown marketing itself to attract customers, although this remains a factor. Rather, it’s about jointly marketing the extended historic downtown business district as a destination in and of itself. To paraphrase the imbibing Founder, those of us in the food and drink business will succeed together, or fail separately.
If any business owner downtown feels that it's all about his or her own business and not about the climate of the extended area, there'll be a limit to what downtown can do. LEO's article was a gift extended in our general direction.
For heaven's sake, why spit on the platter?
102 comments:
Geez man, I think the guy is just saying he feels slighted because there's not much talk in the article of anything but bars and restaurants and he makes a legit point, for every success story there seems to be just as many failures.
I thought the article was decent, but it was basically just a summary of multiple past articles. There was basically no new information. I felt like I was reading an editorial on stories I wrote last year. But the attention is good for the city and the efforts of downtown enthusiasts.
I'd concede that point if it were not for the fact that Cary spoke with Todd Coleman (furniture) and featured Jala Miller (resident above Studio's) and the Bergmans, too. Yes, it had a food and drink focus.
In all business, there are as many failures as successes. Nothing new there, either. Critical mass comes from a combination of factors, businesses and residential, all taking place in an area that needs to be marketed as such.
Collectively.
Agreed, but I don't think that's his point. It seems he's miffed because the article focuses more on the newbies as opposed to the businesses like his that have been in the downtown for a long time, well before it became the trendy thing to do.
I can understand his beef, working for a business that has been in the downtown longer that nearly all its neighbors. As for the collectivism you speak of, I think many times that's one-sided too. I think a lot of businesses talk unity as long as it helps their bottom line, few actually participate out of the kindness of their hearts.
Exactly my point: Unity as bottom line enhancement.
Why is thinking outside the box such a hard thing to do?
I guess my point is the second it's not profitable to be unified, then that team spirit will disappear, so I don't think you can really blame the guy for putting his business first. I really don't think his support for local bars and restaurants will lead to more business at the antique shop. But if he bought an ad in the Tribune...
It's one thing to be 'miffed', it's another things to say how distasteful the magazine is and what bad reporting it was. Write a letter as an addendum talking about the other businesses not mentioned, not as an attack.
We reporters get called stuff all the time, it's just part of the territory. Media, in whatever form, is subjective, so if the guy thinks the magazine is a rag and the reporting was bad then he is correct to assert that, same with our paper, certain stuff doesn't appeal to everyone. I'm sure the reporter got a good chuckle from the letter and moved on, like most of us do when insults get thrown our way. Some of the things I've been called are just flat out funny. At the end of the day, we get a small stipend to deal with some pretty complex issues and people expect perfection. Of course if I could hang over their shoulder at work every day complaining about each and every mistake or shortcoming, they'd probably take a different view.
There was basically no new information.
But there were tens of thousands of new readers within a target demographic that we need to reach. And for many of them, it was either new information or confirmation of word of mouth and rumor.
Given that and Cary's long-standing reputation for integrity and trustworthiness, the LEO cover story is arguably the most important single piece of media to be produced about New Albany in some years.
As Roger mentioned, it was the type of gift that PR types salivate over.
If the response to that from New Albanians is overtly negative, we'll have only ourselves to blame if we see no more of it.
The article in LEO cost them NOTHING. Their building was on the COVER. That cost them NOTHING. How in the world were they harmed?
It was new information for most of the readers in Louisville. If a bar and/or restaurant brings a Kentuckian over to New Albany, maybe they'll notice the antique store. I doubt they ever thought of that. One extra customer for them would be more profit(or less loss). Their letter may have turned many potential customers(profit)away. There is harm in that.
Oh I agree it does reach a new audience so from that perspective yes it's quite important. You're right, it was basically just a PR story, which businesses need from time to time sure.
Obviously these media outlets are my competition, so my views are slanted. But what gets me about a lot of New Albany businesses is that they promise stories to Louisville press even when we knew about it and asked about it first. It definitely gets them a new audience. But most of the time it's a one-time deal. Do you think those sources are going to come back to do follow-ups? Run briefs on special events? Get photos of your business to run in the paper? Well, I guess they might come back if your business shuts down. Sure, Louisville is a much bigger audience, but your locals are going to be what makes your business thrive. Maybe some people from across the river will come over here every now and then, but why would they do it on a regular basis when they have everything we have and then some within a block or two?
I have a friend that's lived in Louisville nearly his entire life and he told me he's only come to Southern Indiana twice! That's crazy. So I took him to sportstime and jacks a few weeks back and he had a blast, especially because of the indoor smoking. But later he told me he probably wouldn't come back much because of the drive, that's just a hurdle that will always be there and all the cover stories in the world won't change that.
It wasn't the concern for Mr. Stemle that made me say that, Daniel. Rather the idea that the letter writers could have handled this better. They could have praised the article for what it was, pointed out that there are other long-standing businesses in New Albany as well and left the pettiness alone.
Instead, their letter reads to me (and others, I would imagine), "Waaah, my business didn't get mentioned and I hate your magazine and reporter."
Of course that would be one approach but not a popular one in our society. I just sense a man in this letter frustrated about all the credit going to the new kids on the block when they have been there for a long time.
You got that right, Bayernfan. Not only whiney but pointing out a closed business. That many businesses have failed. Someone who may have been interested now just says, "sounds like just what I always thought of New Albany. That Stemle guy is full of crap".
They took a shot at LEO and Stemle but didn't realize they aiming at their own ass. Bullseye.
...they WERE aiminig...
Can't type as fast as I think. I know, I'm a very slow typist!!
But Mark a journalist is supposed to point out facts, even if they strongly support something. If not, you're basically just doing P.R. But no one can get all the facts all the time.
That said, I'm still trying to confirm. I was told the little chef is just remodeling, not closed. Still trying to track down the owner.
Daniel,
You don't need EACH "extra" L-villian to come every night. Or every week. Or every month.
With that size of a market, even a very small percentage adds up quick. A and B come tonight and again two weeks later. C and D come tomorrow night and again a month later. X, Y, Z come Saturday night. B and Y come come next Wed. They tell others and A-1 starts coming every few weeks. etc.
Your friend, if he comes twice a year, well that's two times more than he had. If he tells 10 people and just one comes twice, well that's a total 4 extra visits.
What facts did Stemle have wrong? Little Chef aside, as it seems no one really knows.
"They took a shot at LEO and Stemle but didn't realize they were aiming at their own ass. Bullseye."
That's the New Albany Syndrome in a nutshell.
Daniel wrote: "Sure, Louisville is a much bigger audience, but your locals are going to be what makes your business thrive. Maybe some people from across the river will come over here every now and then, but why would they do it on a regular basis when they have everything we have and then some within a block or two?"
Yo, Daniel: You must offer something they don't have within a block or two of them. You offer something different, or lacking that, you offer the same thing done better, or you package the same things done the same way but do it differently, i.e., in a charming historical district.
For quite a few years, my business offered something, a beer selection, that Louisville didn't have on every corner.
Now that's changing, and the world's catching up to us, and so we're shifting focus to the house brewed brands and widening distribution outside the city limits and Louisville metro.
Yes, we still need a local audience, but consider for a moment the good-natured hint that advertising locally would be good for a business like ours. Maybe that's true, although we've seldom spent money on ads since starting up in 1992.
That's because even the circulation of a smaller newspaper like the Tribune is too large to justify our spending money on ads that would be ineffectually targeted. In short, too many people who aren't the target would see the ads, and too few who are the target. I understand our target, and the newspaper that tells me it must write at a 4th (?) grade level to suit the readership is telling me that buying an ad there wouldn;t be a good thing for my business. It may well be for another, though.
I've always preferred targeting the chosen niche instead of throwing out too big of a net. You'd be shocked to know how many businesses have no handle whatsoever on their customer base.
I see things that make me go hmmm, as in the dude at Little Man's Bargains on Main Street, standing on the corner, shirtless, showing his tattoos. Apparently he is confident that his customer base won't find that sort of thing repulsive. Some, however, will find it offputting. I suppose so long as the "bargains" are there ... my guess is he's not reading LEO.
Come to think of it, maybe the antique store owners' complaint by letter in LEO won't cost them business, after all. It depends on whether their target clientele reads LEO. If not, no danger. I spend little money on antiques. It all goes for beer and tobacco.
Mark, that's too much addition for me. The facts I'm talking about is what the guy was referring to, failures that weren't really mentioned. To him those were facts that were ignored.
Roger, I may have to write on a sixth grade level, but I can report circles around any of Leo's staff. It's a funny read, but the New Albany piece was a good example. Nothing new...just the same stuff we already knew recycled. If your target audience finds that exciting and new, then they are probably too lazy to drive to New Albany anyway. Plus the sixth grade level is a means to be inclusive. I would venture to say that some of your biggest supporters read our paper daily, not once a week or month or however often Leo and Business First come out.
And I agree that likely many people from L'ville come to your business, but that's the exception. I would say the key to businesses surviving here is stop leakage. Give people here a reason to spend their money here instead of driving to L'ville. Floyds Knobs, NA and Harrison County, there's money to be made there. Yeah, you might get some stragglers from L'ville, but you can get a consistent base from Southern Indiana. Isn't that what our local development agencies preach?
I'm not sure if you were responding to me, Daniel, but I was not suggesting that Cary's piece was written as PR.
Roger, I may have to write on a sixth grade level, but I can report circles around any of Leo's staff.
Is this a joke or are you nuts?
Oh I'm serious. I have to write 2-3 stories a day, I would like to see hw they would handle that.
It was a total PR piece, and I haven't word about it except from the people who were in it. Let's see...that was you...
And while your friend may be an upstanding writer to you, wasn't he fired from the Leo as an editor a few years back? Ah well, I'm not trying to get into a bash on some guy I don't know. It just feeds further into my theory — people in NA go crazy when somebody from Louisville looks their way.
Daniel S wrote
"Mark, that's too much addition for me."
Wearin' your shoes today, huh?(vbg)
I would agree that omission in a story can be just as "lethal" as wrong facts. Reporting an interview with Doug England and not mentioning that he was stark naked on Spring Street at the time, would be an example. However, I don't think this is the case in this instance, do you? Can anyone really cover ALL aspects of any reporting story?
You take the total population of Floyd, Clark and Harrison and the total is just a pittance compared to Louisville.
Back to the numbers. It doesn't have to be one person from L-ville coming over 30 days a month. It can be 30 people, each coming over one day. Or 120, each coming over every 4th day. The net effect is the same as one NA resident coming in every day.
That was cheap shot, Daniel. I don't know Cary Stemle. Wouldn't even recogize him. I know of him and enjoy his writing.
Your "fact" is correct. What you omitted was that he was not retained when LEO was bought out, not an uncommon occurence with new ownership. Feel a "breeze"?
And you wonder why people withhold stories for other media.
No Mark, I definitely don't think it was done on purpose and I think it was a great feel good story and a way to get the work of so many in New Albany recognized on a larger scale.
My point is 99 percent of businesses in New Albany will need Southern Indiana for sustainability just because of proximity.
No I don't wonder why, I find it extremely hypocritical, but not much surprises me. In the end it doesn't hurt me, it hurts the business because it gets less exposure. Any person that can read on a fourth grade level can see that the coverage our papers give to Southern Indiana easily trumps all the other media outlets combined, did I say easily?
And sorry mark for the cheapshot, but I felt one was dealt my way. I'll defend my reporting to the end. It's not perfect, heck sometimes it's not even interesting, but it's my work. I earn it every day.
When Cary interviewed me for the LEO story on someone else's suggestion, he didn't know what I looked like as it was the first time we'd ever had a conversation.
Cheap shots, lack of context, and factual errors. Insert whatever Murrow cliche seems to fit.
Dude that's fine, I could really care less. This isn't about you, never was. But when you make statements about a summary story being the most important media piece on New Albany ever, I don't think it's I that has lost context or needs to check facts.
First, BG didn't say "ever". "...in some years".
Second, while hyperbole could be argued, when taken in the context of the article, I'm not sure that BG is not correct. His statement is not a direct shot at you or the Tribune. BG, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.(like you need my permission)
Whoever said the story was to be a hard hitting investigative report? Not every article in the LEO, CJ, or Tribune fall under that header. The Tribune does plenty of "puff" pieces.
The LEO story certainly had alot of people talking about New Albany and the future of downtown redevelopment.
I've also got to add...Jeff said "the LEO cover story is arguably the most important single piece of media to be produced about New Albany in some years."
I think he might be right. He didn't say 'ever' as you stated, Daniel. Just recently. It's certainly the best story regarding New Albany and its future I've read since we moved here some 4 years ago.
True. But if I basically write a summary of what's already been reported, I don't think you'll call me the greatest thing since sliced bread either.
This is way off the point. My original point was I can understand the antique guy feeling under appreciated. From there, my points are New Albany needs to keep its own shopping here before it worries about conquering Louisville. I don't care about LEO or have anything against its writers or whatever. I do believe, strongly, that our staff is much more talented and puts in the work to cover Southern Indiana everyday...not just when it's suddenly popular again. Beyond that, i would encourage anybody to read as many media sources as they can.
The LEO article ran under a sub headline of "Have you heard this story before?" and was written under an umbrella question of whether or not New Albany's revitalization efforts will be any more successful than those of other neighborhoods, cities, etc.
It included information about obstacles like political battles, sewer problems, public housing concentration, lax code enforcement, etc., as part of the questioning.
Daniel says that's PR.
Compare it to recent reporting of the police funding debate. The story has been framed from the beginning as "The police need help. Will they get it?" while never asking the question if the additional help, via a large injection of tax dollars, is actually justified.
If the LEO story is PR, what is that?
Good idea, back to the point.
Explain, how you understand:
"...and would like to take this opportunity to express our distaste for your magazine and lack of good reporting."
Lastly, it's not about Daniel vs Cary. Or Tribune vs LEO.
Good night and good luck.
What it included was opinions about sewers, infrastructure and all that jazz. Never in any story do you see me come and out make statements claiming one side is right or wrong, as occurred in this article. The police stories credit those claims to the people making the statements. Statements of opposition to the police hires have also been included and attributed. I guess you just read what you want to. Where's the counterbalancing in the article you speak of?
Perhaps you just like one-sided reporting when it serves your cause. I'm sure you'd like me to write a story about how all the edit money should be taken out of sewers but you wouldn't care for me interviewing a low-income family that really can't afford any more increases because judging by statements made on this blog, they just shouldn't be poor. And since they aren't adapt readers, they shouldn't eat at sportstime either.
As for Mark's argument about 2 and 2 and 2 and all that, does that not also make sense for New Albany? And lastly Mark those are the antique guy's words, he has the right to say them. I have honestly read Leo twice in my life, so I'm not an expert to quantify them.
"I have honestly read Leo twice in my life, so I'm not an expert to quantify them."
So much for another argument.
No dispute, they have the right to say them.
Roger(or anyone else)has the right to point out how he feels the owners are in error. You're the one who said that he understood where the owners were coming from. You also wanted to get back on point. I agreed and did.
If it matters, I think that you do try to be fair in your reporting. None of us are perfect and I don't think any of us are asking anybody else to be perfect.
I said I understand where the owners are coming from. I don't really see your point.
No I don't read Leo because it never has anything about NA in it. They did one story, don't hold your breath till they publish another one.
But they have a columnist every other week who lives and works in New Albany. Knows a bit about beer, too.
Or so I'm told.
Nope, it's too late. i'm now officially anti-leo. I'm going to have a shirt made now.
Hell, they have a columnist who writes a blog from which the local newspaper cribs a lot of its New Albany stories.
But don't tell anyone. Rehashing is a sign of shoddy journalism.
My point is, you said that you understood the owner's view. I asked you to defend that understanding. Not that the owner had a right to say it. Remember, yours was the first comment and led to 40+ others as of this writing.
Call it a summary if you wish. Call it opinion, if you wish. It's hard to argue with the good exposure to a certain market that New Albany received.
I also understand how you don't understand where we are coming from. LEO pretty much hits a market that would be interested in the restaurants and bars. It hits a lot of "loft" dwellers. People who think outside the box. It's really not a general interest paper like the Tribune. Different targets and the article was written to appeal to LEO's target audience. Demographics?
You could write a Pulitizer prize winning article on NA government and LEO and most of it's readers couldn't care less. I hope you do write one. I would care and so would Roger, Jeff...
Hell, I care what you write now. First thing I look for is your byline. Really.
(then I read it and silently rip your irresponsible journalism)vbg
Cribs a lot of stories? Oh yeah, I get ideas from all sorts of places. Blogs, readers, coworkers. The difference is when I write a story and when you do jeff, is more than ten people usually read mine and it's not full of my personal slant. It's hypocritical to whine constantly about new Albany and then say you don't need their business. You call your ideas progressive, I call most of them self serving.
Mark I appreciate what you have to say. I defend the guy because bars aren't going to save the city. They make for sexy headlines, but they give relatively little back in terms of jobs and taxes. I dare say one chain like cracker barrell would bring more people downtown than all the mom and pop places will combined. That's my point, not his.
"I dare say one chain like cracker barrell would bring more people downtown than all the mom and pop places will combined."
There's much solid research to rebut this. We've referred to this from time to time on this blog. Stacey Mitchell's "The Home Town Advantage: How To Defend Your Main Street Against Chain Stores ... and Why It Matters" springs to mind.
"It's hypocritical to whine constantly about new Albany and then say you don't need their business."
Speaking only for myself, I haven't intended to imply this. I've said that when it comes to advertising dollars, I prefer to deploy what few we use on targeting specific demographics that are more likely to favor our product. We've always relied on traditional values like word-of-mouth and low intensity sponsorships/donations locally.
Education of the local market has been a constant since we began. It never ceases. It is done more effectively at the grassroots than by accepted medias, that's all. None of this implies brushing off local business. It's just that I've never thought that just because we're here in poor old downtrodden NA, we must forego trying to be the best, anywhere. We're not, but that doesn't mean you stop trying, growing and evolving.
Our business plan for the beer rollout begins with heavy emphasis on Louisville, because that's where more craft beer drinkers live. It does not excluse New Albany and Southern Indiana, where we intend to be known by finding the 20 people who live in Madison or Corydon and like craft beer, and turning them into fans.
Another thing Daniel is missing is lumping downtown three-ways into the word "bars." Has he noticed that there are kitchens, too, and that even with a recession, plenty of folks are eating (shall we say) differently than before? Being known as a restaurant quarter isn't a bad thing at all, and we're getting there.
Self-serving? That might depend on where you're standing at the time.
And all the profits go out of town.
However, I would not be adverse to that because it will take a mix of businesses and opportunities to "fix" downtown. Whether I like chains or not, a lot of people do and some chains will probably be a part of said mix. That's just reality.
And who in the hell said anything about not needing New Albany's business? Daniel, right now you have your nose so far out of joint that you aren't making any sense. I say that as a friend. You need to calm down and think this through.
Mark
I'm still fascinated that the skepticism shown here doesn't translate to the Tribune.
Um, where to start. When you say something in a Louisville paper equates to the greatest thing ever, it implies new Albany doesn't matter. When you say you won't advertise in the local paper, the same one that has given you tons of free pub, because of some assumption of who is reading it, you are saying new albany doesn't matter. Look it's great to appreciate yourself, but I don't see how you can say with a straight face that your biz wasn't made by new Albany people, some smart, some not, but still locals.
And for every study offered by a biased local, there is another one offered by a biased chain speaking to the need for an anchor tenant.
Only thing I am skeptical of is the motives of some
This is off topic, but someone has to address this statement:
"Hell, they have a columnist who writes a blog from which the local newspaper cribs a lot of its New Albany stories.
But don't tell anyone. Rehashing is a sign of shoddy journalism."
— bluegill
I don't know who you are Bluegill, but you gave me a nice little laugh — possibly even a LOLz.
Roger admitted that this blog has biases, and it is has ever right to do so.
Journalism presents topics objectively. It does not give someone a free pass because it likes or knows them. It does not focus solely on one topic because it affects them to a greater degree.
This blog is a great place for editorials and diary-type stories, but in no way journalism. That is not a knock toward what anyone does here -- I enjoy reading what NA Confidential presents, especially the dialogue in comments -- but confusing it with journalism is rather ridiculous.
I work at The Tribune, and I can honestly say that never has there been a point where Daniel or anyone has said, "Let's check NA Confidential for a story idea." I believe it's a low blow for you to assume that, and would love to see examples that showcase this so-called "shoddy journalism."
But back on topic, I haven't read the LEO article. All I know is a guy wrote a letter to the editor and complained about the content. I see people on this blog complain about other media's coverage. I complain about having to take a shower every day.
My analysis: People like to complain. It happens everywhere. Let's not blow this out of proportion. Oops ... it appears I'm too late.
Can you BELIEVE I stayed out of this one?
It's most definitely Thursday now. Overwhelming job responsibilities kept me from seeing this, and I consider it providential that this was so. I had an extremely Twitterable day, yet barely saw the little bird until after midnight.
When I could have been pissing people off (congratulations, all - that's usually my job), I spent my file load downtime playing quick hits on "Mobster" at Facebook. Again, I'm so glad.
For those of you involved in the Hubble Telescope Project, great news emitted from lower Spring Street, by the way. I'll debrief at headquarters when I get time (Sunday?).
This thread was not about me, thank God, but here's what I have to say.
I operate a business downtown. I was briefly mentioned in the LEO story. I, and I think all here, recognize that food and beverage are the shock troops in the renaissance, not the heavy artillery. Hell, retail isn't even the heavy artillery.
I am, several times was, and probably always will be a journalist, even if my sustenance doesn't come from drawing a media paycheck. I'm both the strongest supporter and harshest critic of media. I believe Mr. Suddeath does a fine job, and do not and would not fault him for treating NAC and its denizens as reliable tipsters. But NAC is the starting point for some stories, and to say that because a story appears here first is not to say that the Trib is shallow or lazy. I believe the editors would acknowledge they would be disappointed if some of their prods didn't produce coverage in a 5,000-plus circulation general publication.
...to be continued.
This is a first...Blogger told me my post could be, at most, 4,096 words (characters), thus the continuation.
As for LEO, even in the day when Hoosier Cary Stemle was at its helm, coverage of the 10 percent of the metro market that lives north of the Ohio River was scant. Unlike bluegill, I've counted Cary as a friend from almost the first year I came to Indiana. He is still remembered well in Corydon from his time working for the O'Bannon empire, and the biggest reason I like John Yarmuth is that he saw in Cary a gem of a journalist.
Stephen George, the new editor of LEO, was and is a fine reporter. LEO today has, in distribution AND news coverage, abandoned Southern Indiana, sadly, so I saw the COVER STORY as a singular moment that we might not see again short of the kind of story that might appear on 48 Hours or Dateline...attorney Wilder, excepted.
I am the LEO target market for its political coverage. I am so far removed from the market for the back of the paper as to consider myself a voyeur when reading the Bar Belle or the LEO picks.
...continued
That said, Daniel makes some good points regarding media focus. Bluegill rightly bristles at some other of what Daniel has to say about the product.
My view? We need our own LEO, an SIEO if you will, and if the Tribune management doesn't see that, someone else will.
I think I've been a friend to the Tribune and to LEO. I could never justify advertising in LEO, though. And I cannot justify advertising in the Tribune, either. It simply does not reach my market. It's not their fault - no prudent bookseller in the U.S. advertises in local, much less regional, newspapers. It simply does not work.
Ann and I have poured countless dollars into Tribune advertising. We now consider it a voluntary tax to maintain it as a medium for news, but we do not expect a return from that marketing dollar.
...continued
That said, we all need a local newspaper, and I for one am grateful that CNHI continues to believe this is a viable market. Gannett certainly doesn't.
As to both LEO and the Tribune, Gannett's attitude is "we can use our muscle to drive you into bankruptcy, if we wish (and we do), even if we have to lose money doing it. Ultimately, we'll decide what you'll read."
For those who "get it" about shopping "Local First," it starts with the local paper. How many of us wish we still had a local radio station?
As to the LEO letter, I saw it as an ignorant, petulant, and ill-advised reaction. The ignorance came from a lack of understanding of the trade of journalism.
My friend Cary Stemle could have (and I told him this) written a three-part story about New Albany of the caliber of LEO's outstanding mountain-top removal series of a couple of years ago. In fact, Cary could legitimately have written a bi-weekly series of stories about the dysfunction of local government - thank goodness Roger does that online.
But Cary could not have sold it. LEO readers wouldn't care. In fact, I'd wager that the New Albany cover was one of the least popular LEO issues in years. Would you be clamoring to read a cover story about how Bardstown, Ky. has dealt with being a subaltern to Louisville? I don't think so.
All of that is said to defend Cary from the unfair charge that his story was "P.R." That's the same as calling it a puff piece, which it was not. It was positive, but things here are positive. Our warts were adequately exposed, but the skeptical tone of the lead communicates Cary's benign attitude toward a town he honestly cares for.
Cary's from Clarksville. In fact, he serves as a public official there. But the mere fact that he could accept appointment to their planning commission demonstrates Daniel's point that LEO doesn't cover Southern Indiana. Cary honestly had no conflict of interest in serving his city while helming Louisville's Eccentric Observer.
At the risk of appearing arrogant, I think I have a keen understanding of this story and how it affects us as a city. I agree with Jeff that it is perhaps the most important piece of journalism we have seen or will see in years. It reached people we need here and at an almost subliminal level, it should yield tangible results.
Believe it or not, even people who were here BEFORE the Scribners read LEO. And those of us who didn't graduate from NAHS or FCHS can assure you that this market is blessed to have a LEO on the job.
That does NOT mean that LEO is more important to us than our local newspaper. It doesn't even want to be. Daniel and his editor, Steve, and Eric, Daniel's predecessor, are much stronger journalists than this town is entitled to, and I speak from some experience.
Let me end by saying that reading this thread evoked an image of pit bulls fighting.
Now, Daniel. CNHI won't back it, and the Tribune can't afford the campaign, but a Pulitzer Prize is waiting for the journalist who exposes the only city in the U.S. that refuses to draw lawful legislative districts. That's not an opinion. That's not a he-said, she-said story that demands an artificial objectivity.
That's unique. That's the kind of story that gets you on Keith Olbermann. That's the kind of story that gets you a tryout with the NYT, if not a staff position at the Washington Post. I'm not "from" here, so I can tell you that this kind of thing doesn't happen anymore. Only in New Albany. Seriously.
The mere fact that the Tribune treats this story as a "he said, she said" dispute lends credence to Jeff's charges of shoddy journalism.
But don't worry too much. Jeff's pretty pissed off at me right now, too. Maybe not as pissed off as he'll be next week, but pretty pissed.
P.S. In case you were wondering, I love bluegill, and not just fried up in a pan.
This, obviously, not a Tweet.
Fortunately, it's 3 a.m., so no one will read this, but here are my thoughts, comment by comment. Sorry, Daniel S, but it appears I object most often to your writings on this thread. Day off, I'm betting.
Daniel, I considered buying both the Fair Store building and the Lewis Appliance building (the Bergman's did so and live there), and there was no antique store there 5 years ago, so to refer to newbies and "businesses like his that have been in the downtown for a long time" seems inaccurate. Perhaps they moved there when they acquired part of Gerry Durnell's property, but that was hardly a "long time" ago.
Daniel, even cryptically, can you tell us about local businesses who withhold stories from the Tribune in hopes that the C-J will give them a few inches in the "Indiana" section of the corporate cash cow?
Daniel, I'm not under a compulsion to publish, but my information is that what you believe to be true about the Little Chef is way off base. I'm told they will NEVER return because they neglected the basic rule - pay the state its tribute or be thrown to the lions. That ought to be a public record - the tax liability of a downtown business.
I applaud your declaration that you can "report circles" around ANY of LEO's staff. It wasn't true when Cary Stemle was in charge and might be true now, but I applaud your confidence in yourself, in any event.
I can confirm your statements about drawing business from Louisville, but there is value in that incremental dollar. These are people who don't even know the name "Tribune," but add revenue to us if they think it's to their benefit. If Dale Moss writes about my store, I'll see an immediate response. It's a fact of life.
I'll buy one of those shirts you're having made, by the way.
Isn't every thought we have self-serving? I want a livable city. If I advocate for things I believe will make it livable, I'm serving myself. But for Daniel to say Jeff's "progressive" ideas self-serving reveals a misunderstanding. Marginally, it might make Jeff's life easier, or his property more saleable, but how is advocating for slumlord eradication any more self-serving than simply showing up for work every day? I think what Jeff does is much more selfless than self-serving, ideas AND actions.
Daniel, don't show your ignorance so blatantly ?? "every study offered by a biased local?" Have you even read the studies referenced at Hometown Advantage? I know they don't teach in journalism school that there is no truth. Roger may believe there is no God, but journalists aren't supposed to believe there is no truth.
"Skeptical of ...the motives of some." ???? Come right out and say what you mean, man. What motives? What some? Bike lanes because I like to bike safely? That's a nefarious motive? I'd like to leave home without worrying my door won't be smashed in and my house trashed and emptied. Is that a nefarious motive for supporting an environment of enforcement of laws?
Finally, Evan Campbell. You offend and overstate your point to say that NAC is "in no way journalism." Granted, Roger did not attend "journalism" school - something that, by the way, is a relatively recent thing and arguably counterproductive - but he's been inquiring longer than you have been alive. A generation older than me would clearly recognize NAC as journalism just as readily as you, a generation younger than me can't recognize it. Having grown up in that middle generation, I reject your analysis. Please be proud of what you do and how you do it, and please defend your profession, but it does not require you to show your own biases.
Randy,
As always you make some great points. I'll just respond to a few.
A-On Evan and the blog. Evan operates a few blogs himself, so he knows the ropes. I think he's speaking about blogs in general. Most aren't really trustworthy, this one is different, IMO. There are good stories on here, there are a lot of opinions too. I don't think blogs will ever take the place of newspapers however, because there's not enough jurisdiction. As I said earlier, i get story ideas wherever I can. We're taught that in the good ole J-school. I'd be a fool if I didn't pay attention to what people are talking about.
B-I have nothing against LEO or Mr. Stemle. Reading his work, he's a fine writer. My only point was that there was nothing new in the article, nothing that couldn't be found in two minutes via a quick google search. Heck, you could go to DNA's site and find much of it.
While it might have reached some new readers, I still firmly believe New Albany's success doesn't lie with the Louisville market. I took some of Roger's comments to mean that all of our readers are on a sixth grade level, which is simply not the case. And to be perfectly honest Roger, I've seen some customers at sportstime that look like they might not even of made out of the sixth grade. But I applaud you for understanding market placement.
C Randy I don't believe there isn't truth, I believe there are multiple truths depending on perspective. To some, Wal-Mart is the devil and has cost them jobs and money. To others, it's a great place to get discounted items and is an anchor store that other stores build around. Both are true in some ways, depending on who you ask.
D-I get more confused about the redistricting bit every time I interview someone else. But don't think for a minute that it's been forgotten.
Finally the community needs blogs like this one, newspapers like ours, and residents like Randy who actually give a crap. The outsiders come and go, but there are only a few real watchdogs.
Now I'm going to learn more about sewers...yay.
But don't worry too much. Jeff's pretty pissed off at me right now, too. Maybe not as pissed off as he'll be next week, but pretty pissed.
No, I'm not. At all. I guess we'll see if I am next week, since I don't know what you're talking about.
To The Bookseller:
You spend more time attacking my age than addressing the issue. I didn't know being young took away from the validity of what I had to say here. I'll remember that in the future when I want to comment on a post.
If this blog is meant as a journalistic and objective endeavor, then I suppose I have been misled. On the last post I commented on regarding a New Albany City Council meeting, Roger commented, "Does this mean that Messer gets a “free ride”? Not sure, although maybe."
I didn't know journalists or reporters could give free rides to people. I also double-checked, and I didn't see anywhere that clearly labeled that story as an editorial. So it's not presented as fact? If so, I've lost my trust in this blog -- something that plays a major role in journalism.
Is this blog journalism? Man, this is a topic that could be debated and argued for hours and we'll never come to a consensus on this blog. But to allege that this blog contains the same journalistic standards -- or better -- than The Tribune, which bluegill seemed to propose, is still, in my opinion, ridiculous.
Once again, I believe this to be a great site with intriguing content. And, I'll even reel back my statement a bit, saying that it offers bits of journalistic quality. But for the most part, and from what I've read and been told, this is a site that Roger and others want to express their opinions and showcase what they see of New Albany. That's awesome ... but please don't try to act as if you're better than any local paper.
And sadly, once again, I believe this letter has been blown out of proportion.
Didn't propose anything of the sort, Evan.
I'm not a journalist(big surprise)so I don't know all the technical terms,details of inner workings, rules, etc. However, I am reasonably well educated and I'm older than any of the current participants. Not that age necessarily gives wisdom but it does usually mean having seen and experienced more. Sometimes that adds perspective(I think that is Randy was getting at).
I will admit to being very surprised by the "leaps" of logic taken by DS and EC. I know that your reading comprhension can't be that bad. If you want to take a sentence or two out of context and make a big deal out of it, here's one to try:
"When you say you won't advertise in the local paper, the same one that has given you tons of free pub, because of some assumption of who is reading it, you are saying new albany doesn't matter."
Gee, are you saying that it is EXPECTED of a business, that has been mentioned in a news article, to buy advertising? Try to tell me that sentence couldn't be interpreted that way.
Now, I don't believe that was what Daniel was saying. I don't think any of the "others" did either. That's why it wasn't brought up. Yet, this has turned into the "Tribune" defending itself against attacks that were never there. Daniel seems to have gotten his feelings hurt that some people liked an article in another publication.
Man, this is nuts.
The only reason that the Tribune may have come under attack here is the gratuitous insult that was made about the writer of the LEO article. To me, it was both offensive and off base. From what I have seen, nobody in this vicinity can report circles around Cary Stemle.
Mark, Daniel is not hurt because people liked the article. I said I liked the article too, I just said there's nothing new in it. And I feel the antique guy is justified for stating his opinion. Jeff basically said we copy off NAC, which is why Evan was mad. There's not too many ways you can take that statement. And yes, if I had a week to do one story, it would be very circular meatbe. You'll have to excuse me though, I'm off to my third meeting of this fine morning. Cheers.
Then why did you get all defensive starting at 11:46 and even more at 12:29. That was way before anyone got "down and dirty".
Nobody ever said that NA customers weren't important. It was being pointed out that exposure to the L-ville market was important for business. Not the end all, but important.
You kept saying that it wasn't new information. Jeff pointed out that it was NEW information for the Kentucky market. And that is LEO's market. Any article or advertisement in the Tribune does zilch for getting the Kentucky market. Speaking of ads, I don't believe Roger advertises in the LEO or CJ, either.
And further speaking of ads, the only reason that I know Roger is because of the Tribune. 15 years or so ago, I read an ad or article in the Tribune about a place called Richo's BBQ. That's how I met Roger. I'll leave it up to Roger to decide if that was "good" advertising or not.
There's seldom any way of knowing the precise topic that will generate discussion. Nor can anyone predict the topic that will peel away the layers of skin and expose the blood vessels and sinews beneath.
My impression is that lots and lots of apples are being compared with toilet seats.
As an aside, I believe Broken Sidewalk linked to the original posting. This surely was a treat for the visitors thus generated.
I'll have more to say in a marquee posting. In the meantime, relax in the knowledge that the people most in need of exposure to the ideas contained herein probably didn't read any of them.
R
For the record: Recently we've run an ad or two in LEO, but won't be doing so again (at least soon), because they were unable to efficiently place the last ad where they said they would.
Given the current editor's recent interference in the subject matter of my column, I decided they'd not have any more of our money, until competence in the ad department is displayed.
See? Even I have grievances, LOL.
Damn I miss Joe.
Mark the 12:29 has been brewing for a long time, and it has absolutely nothing to do with Roger's place. I called Roger last summer before I ever met him and he gave me the tour and story of the Brewhouse before anyone else. He could of called L'ville, but he didn't. Randy I can name specific cases, but I'm not going to go there.
Mark, my point is still that Kentucky people are not going to be the driving force of 99 percent of businesses here. It just won't happen. I've talked about this with three or four people from L'ville and they basically laughed when I asked if they plan on hanging out in NA now that we have a few more three-ways(:). But on the contrary, New Albany people are pumped about the changes and it's a beautiful thing.
Now just remember I still like all you guys, well, except for Mark. I think Evan is filing an age lawsuit against him.
Daniel, you need to go to talk with an economist out at IUS. Talk to a business professor while you are there. Ask them about the economic impact of "visitor" dollars. Obviously I can't explain it. Jefferson County has 10 times the population of Floyd County. Yeah, you won't get anywhere near the percentage of penetration but you don't have to. New Albany would be foolish to ignore 700,000 just across the bridge. It's not just bars. I hear an ad all the time on the radio for the scratch and dent appliance store.
Tell Evan to bring it on. Is he the brilliant young man who has addressed the council a couple of times? If so, you probably ought to spend a little more time around him, Daniel!
I don't think you can ignore it, but I don't think it's as important as New Albany. Thus my point, that the article wasn't as important as others because it's not going to bring the people that new albany will.
And yes, Evan spoke at the meeting. He needs a haircut!
But see, I've also talked to friends in Louisville who read the LEO article and were impressed to the point that they said they would start coming over to try something new. They won't be coming over every weekend, but that's not the point. Your friends ridicule, my friends are interested. Maybe it's all in how it's presented to them?
Are you saying because I said
"Hey, check out this load of crap. You boys wanna drink some miller lites with me and head up to the rustic frog for some love and affection New Albany style?" That that in some way affected their answer? Come on, no way.
It's obvious, Bayernfan. Your friends are much more open minded, civilized and intellectual than Daniel's.
Daniel, I admire your dedication and loyalty to your profession and your employer. Write us that Pulitzer Prize winner. (or Evan will beat you to it)
Being a Kentucky native, and I didn't want to get into this aspect, there's actually a creed we all swear to that we will not aid Indiana in any way, including supporting its businesses. My parents won't speak to me since I broke free from the tyranny.
Only thing Evan can beat me to is a cold frosty at Wendy's, which I could be enjoying much closer to my house this evening if it wasn't for that hippy-haired punk.
I'm not saying that at all, Daniel. Just pointing out that the reactions you say your friends had are quite different from my friends, I find that curious.
I've been meaning to ask this, but if we accept the conventional wisdom advanced by Daniel that Louisvillians simply will not come to Indiana in sufficient numbers to matter, then how am I to explain the Kentucky plates that have been filling NABC's parking lot on Grant Line Road for the past decade or more?
I know: You've given me props for knowing our market, and all that. You should, because I do. At the same time, the more I think about this, isn't what we've done with NABC transferable to other businesses ... if those businesses are willing to learn the lesson?
And this isn't exclusive to a specialized demographic, is it? In its prime, South Side drew Kentuckians in droves. When it was in its prime, it brought them because it picked something to do and did it quite well.
I genuinely believe that location doesn't matter if the product's good. There's plenty of independent verification of this.
Then again, I'm a contrarian.
I will try to let this thread go now. Really.
A regular stream of my co-worker lawyers, almost all from the east end of Louisville, regularly visit BSB, the Public House, and La Rosita. They also noticed the LEO article.
I'd wager a pretty sum that on any given night, if you polled all the restaurants and three-ways in the city, I feel dirty saying that, in New Albany, that at least 85 percent of the patrons would be from Southern Indiana. Whether or not people saw the article has never been the question. Whether that will make them come to New Albany is. I'm sure some will, don't doubt that at all, but the good folks of Southern Indiana would still win the numbers game.
Thanks, Brandon, for blowing my theory of the more open minded, intellectually gifted, and more civilized.
I swore that I was done with this thread but...
That's progress, Daniel. You've gone from 99% to 85%!(grin)
Also, don't pretend about the 3-way.
A more intellectual and three-way experienced colleague of mine brought up a good point. Why would toast and wick's be opening in new albany if all this were true? Wouldn't they just stay in Louisville and keep all their home customers? Why make them drive so far? Hmmm...
Again, nobody said that there wasn't a market in New Albany. Nobody said that Louisville residents would be the total solution. Show me. I don't know why we are still talking about that.
Guess what, people in New Albany already know of Toast and Wicks. Other than very recent stories about them coming to New Albany in the Tribune, how do you think people know about them? Uh, CJ, LEO, TV. Certainly not from the Tribune. Why would you have written about them? You had no reason to. The Tribune can write every day, every page about downtown New Albany and nobdy in Louisville will know about it.
You ever stop to think that if the LEO article helps downtown NA, more businesses will spring up and they just might spend some advertising $'s with you? You know, to reach the 85-99% that will keep them in business.
I repeat, go out to IUS.
If you think small, you remain small.
Just ask the "little people" of New Albany.
I'm not saying nobody, but the comments have generally been that there are several Kentucky people here and we have to have them. I just don't see that. Jeff called the LEO article possibly the most important one ever written...if most of your customers are coming from here, that doesn't make sense. Nobody has explained that one, reasonably, yet. If wick's and toast are opening here, that's because they want the NA market. Should they buy an ad in a Louisville paper to advertise that? Wouldn't make sense to me.
Like I said earlier, I think people from New Albany get a little giddy when somebody from Louisville winks at them. It's kind of like when UK will grace Rupp Arena North this winter in Bloomington.
You talk about business, that's cool. I lived in a border town before moving here and interviewed the chamber rep extensively. She said time and time again the key to having business survive there was to stop leakage. It wasn't about getting people from Nashville to come there, it was about keeping what you had. That has to be very relative in Southern Indiana too, where within a five minute drive you have everything New Albany has and then some except for the terrible traffic.
I never said anything about physical geography, did I?
You keep misrepresenting what Jeff said. Is this on purpose? Should I quote (again) what he actually said? When I did it the first time and mentioned that it was the best article about New Albany I'd read in my 4 years here, you agreed with it.
I haven't seen anyone here claim that New Albany must have the Lousville market to survive, but it certainly doesn't hurt when those folks come over to patronize. How are they going to know about our development and new places? They don't take or read the Tribune, but alot of them read LEO, CJ, etc.
It's not about getting hot and bothered over Louisville attention, it's about getting some decent press in an area where we haven't too much previously. Exposure to a demographic that maybe would be interested in what's going on over here and may be interested in coming to see it. I don't see the problem with that nor the positive feelings that it has invoked for folks on our side of the river.
You poke fun at some on here for overstating the LEO article, I'm trying to point out that you may be understating its possible effect.
Um, basically. You said it reached thousands of people that wouldn't have known otherwise and Mark keeps saying that no matter what the Tribune writes, people in Louisville won't know. Maybe you were referring to the great blue yonder.
So now you're misrepresenting because he said he didn't mention a specific place...i feel like i'm spinning in circles
I was referring to a demographic that doesn't necessarily read the Tribune.
Bayernfan referred to getting exposure in that demographic. That's not misrepresentation. He got it exactly.
"in some years" is the correct quote not "EVER".
From a MARKETING standpoint, you can definitely make that argument. LEO, geographically, covers over a million people. That includes Southern Indiana. The Tribune, geographically, covers about 70K. Basically, just Floyd County. There's no comparison on the "area" covered.
I will grant, that more people in Floyd County read the Tribune than read LEO but how many more is the question. And what demographic? Have you checked per capita income lately? We better hope to draw from some other areas. Not many businesses will survive on just the income in New Albany. Of course, if you want just one bar, one furniture store, 1 grocery, 1 hardware store. One barber shop(Evan would never get his hair cut). No increase in tax base. etc. If you want choices, we need to widen our approach.
I can't comment on your chamber rep. I won't comment on many of the chamber reps that I have met over the years. If you can't say...
I agree with Jeff. Quit reading me and read the aspirin fan. He says it better.
By the way Bayernfan, why are you such a fan of aspirin?
Actually, Floyd County is the most affluent county in the Metro region. We just don't have a single media access point to reach them. The Tribune does its public service job, but can't compete as an essential part of people's day the way the woeful C-J does. And to invest in what it would take is too big a risk. The Tribune probably has 10,000 readers, tops.
Daniel S wrote:
"if most of your customers are coming from here, that doesn't make sense. Nobody has explained that one, reasonably, yet."
IT'S CALLED GROWTH!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can you imagine this conversation on Twitter? There would be blood all over the birds.
I guarantee you once again, I'm all about the promises today, might run for Congress, that the trib and the evening news reach more people more frequently in southern indiana than LEO easily. Hey, if the people in the "LEO market" think they're too cool for our paper, no sweat off my back brother. Like I said earlier, it's only hurting them because the coverage comparison is, well really, no comparison at all. Just like the other medias. If the LEO market includes southern indiana, those fine people aren't too worried about knowing what's going on around them.
My original argument had nothing to do with LEO reaching people, it was that the Trib reaches more of our people, more often than LEO. And that businesses that expect us to jump at their every request for coverage but give nothing in return and spend their money elsewhere are hypocritical. Now I'm going to play golf....in Louisville...hehe.
Granted Book, but I specifically said NA. And I may be wrong about that, but I would bet a progressive pint that it is basically a "handful" of people in the Knobs that lifts our average up.
I can't stand looking at that #99.
100
I just learned of this thread ... hopefully I'm too late for anyone to notice.
I can say that:
A) I thought the story of what is happening in NA is interesting in a general sense. When I discussed it with the editor of LEO, he agreed and asked me to write it up.
B) Daniel is right. No new info, just an aggregation of things that are known to people there.
C) The LEO audience is more general and most don't know what's going on in the Indiana part of the metro area.
D) Though I didn't quote heavily, and though it's a magazine-style piece, with liberal analysis by the writer, there is a lot of reporting involved. I spoke to scores of people and synthesized things they told me into a whole. If there were errors in context or fact, no one has pointed them out.
E) I was pretty busy on the story and barely got it done. But I probably could have benefited from speaking to the antique store's owners. I think their perspective would be welcome, and my failure to ask for it was not personal whatsoever. It was just one of those brutal exigencies that come with having a deadline.
F) The story was written with a degree of "I've heard this story before" skepticism, but also with some optimism based on things that have occurred.
G) I did, in fact, point out that the Little Chef is closed. Not sure how they missed that in the story.
H) There are/were so many avenues to go down that I necessarily had to gloss over or omit many. My cousin who has artwork in the Pearl Gallery chastised me for not speaking to them, for eg.
I) The question of how Louisville figures into this is a good one with no clear answer. Some I spoke to think downtown NA needs to recast itself as another Bardstown Road or Frankfort Ave. Others say that's foolish and you must retain the natives.
J) That said, I think it's worthwhile to write for an unknowing audience about what is essentially another neighborhood in the larger metro where they live. That was a huge reason for doing the story in the first place.
K) I enjoyed writing the piece and meeting a lot of committed folks who are engaged. If someone felt sleighted, I do regret that.
L) There is something universal about this story.
--30--
Thanks, Cary.
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