Nah, not really.
As the entire world is aware, Democrats almost everywhere in America absrobed a pounding, but locally and regionally, the extent of the party's eclipse yesterday was stunning and historic in dimension.
It was an epic thrashing, to be sure -- so, what next?
Republicans nationwide get another chance to inflict various tribal orthodoxies on demographic trends that still bode ill for them in the future.
More importantly, the 2011 city election cycle begins now. Council? Mayor?
Bridge tolling, anyone?
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117 comments:
The only cycling I care about is mine going across the 2nd St. bridge to and from school.
I wouldn't care if they charged $100 to cross the bridge in a car, it wouldn't affect me, and I'd feel better at the of the day after getting my blood flowing, it happens every time.
If anyone needs one I have a Centurion and a Peugeot, you can pick which ever.
Yes, I did ride in the snow this past winter, and yes I had an accident on black ice, but I'm still here.
Vote for me!!!!
Which office, Pete? Or, shall we create one suitable for our purposes?
Look for 1Si to become even more politically active this next election season. Once they've installed their hand picked candidates on New Albany's council (and Jeff's), then it's all over.
city council, probably at large unless there's a way to dethrone Caesar in the 2nd district.
running independent, which will be a challenge but i have no love for either party.
I'll actually get to plant New Albanese Flowers! (yard signs)
I'm still convinced you can get elected if enough people see your sign going down the road. It's not like anyone talks about issues in New Albany.
One good sign: Clere lost every precinct in New Albany's central business district, West End, or Midtown. The downtown podium posing did him no good.
Some in the city are paying attention.
Oh, and the Canadians have been quietly proving true what Republicans say is impossible. They also currently have a skilled worker immigration program.
I noticed there were large swaths of New Albany he didn't do so well in, but I wasn't sure which precincts represented which parts. Good. Now when he jumps on the ORBP/tolling band wagon with gusto, we'll see what people think of the bed they made...
Pete: Both in the political and the buy-local realms, we need to begin assembling the coalition of the willing.
My thought is that the two of us set a place and time for weekly public chats. If it remains the two of us for very long, we're dead anyway. This has to be organic grassroots. Start small and build. Split it into political and business wings when necessary. Stay nimble, be principled.
Ah hour a week to start, and get the basics down. Question is, where?
I knew Jeff would look more closely at the precincts. I suspect Randy is, too.
Can the Democrats sink any further?
Can the Democrats sink any further?
If they continue to rely on a dead and dying electorate instead of taking on actual local issues as a function of being a party then, yes, they can sink much further.
It's not as if we haven't spent the past few years trying to warn them. GOP straight ticket votes outnumbered Democratic straight tickets by 1,650 yesterday.
But maybe it's best if stupidity dies with them. They've been unwilling to do any housecleaning so it's being done for them. We need long-term solutions, not short, cheap electoral bursts.
I think there's still a case to be made for a short, generally non-partisan, bullet-point platform of six important points, i.e., tolling existing bridges is bad because it would perpetuate an outmoded transportation plan, and so on.
Granted, most of the rational points will not be the GOP's; so be it, but at least there would be a sensible alternative for the public to consider.
The Dems won't do it. Looks like we'll have to do it for them, but not FOR them.
What it boils down to is if the general population cares to include factual truth and rationality as part of their decision making.
Clere consistently contradicted himself and lied during his first two years and actually has electoral gains to show for it. The factual truth, however, is that he's very often completely unable to explain how his favored "reforms" will benefit a single citizen in his district. I know that because I've asked.
As long as that sort of senseless pandering is rewarded, the most rational platform in the world won't make a difference.
As much lip service is paid to accountability, a majority is still too busy, lazy, stubborn, ignorant, etc., to take responsibility for actually implementing it. It's far too easy to just blame reckless "government" while not owning up to the fact that it's a perfect reflection of the state of the community.
A majority chose to put a liar back in office because they prefer being lied to rather than dealing with the reality they've created.
Yes because a government bought and sold by and only beholden to big business is exactly what we need! It's no longer We the People, it's We the Corporations.
Vetteman,
Where were you when the Republicans took a budget with a surplus and in eight years put us in financial distress? Remember, the economy fell apart at the end of their eight year run. The Republicans initiated the bailouts. The Demo's had less than two to fix it. I don't know if they could or would. That would be speculation. It's not speculation what happened on the GOP watch. Why would you think they can fix this?
When it comes to building a sustainable local economy, 1Si's leadership has no expertise, literally zero.
The only way they can maintain their own positions is to ensure that we carry on as a region as if the lone approach they know will work in perpetuity; that infinite growth and increased non-renewable resource usage is both possible and necessary. Admitting the obvious, that it won't work, is their death knell as they have nothing else to offer.
It's bad enough for them to try to ride the coattails of decades of failed policy and resource waste for their own selfish reasons. It's even worse, though, for local politicians to pander to them, paying homage to the most irrational among us instead of working to correct their mistakes.
The Country went to Shit in 06' that was the Democrat controlled congress. So using your own view they had 4 years of Dem. control and they screwed it up.
It's time for the Liberals to get the hell out of the way, you lost deal with it.
One more thing: 1Si was relevant in this election this blog was not.
Bottom line you can talk to each other and say how important you think you are but no one cares. I got on to see if there where any open thinkers here. It has been clear that there is not. People who used 1Si to help them grow there business are now bitching like little girls. If you think they did nothing then put your money where your mouth is and give the Money back and try to get it on your own.
We were back in budget deficits way before 2006 and those deficits didn't even include the war expenses. Bush put those on a credit card. Never put them in the budget. Even if you buy the "reasons" for the war, why didn't we pay for it?
"You lost, deal with it." Really? Is that what the Republicans did after the election two years ago? No, they bitched and moaned and blocked everything they could.
I would lead but you, with your head in the sand, are blocking the way.
I have no dealings with 1SI, so I'm not even close to your definition of beholden. I realize that you are referring to Roger. But as you have consistently done, your facts are wrong. 1SI did not give or loan them one cent. The money came from the Horseshoe Foundation.
I recognize that you are following the rules of this blog as they pertain to identity but
It's amusing as hell to see you so "proud", so "open minded", and so cowardly. Big man/woman to call names behind a mask.
Never said 1Si gave the money to Rodger or any one else. They helped him get it. If not for them. No money. Tell me the last time someone came to your door with cash.
Btw.
It's not because of me that I keep my name privet, but to protect my family. Like I told Rodger, I don't want any thing I say to hurt his or my family or business.
Trust me I'm not scared of you personally. .
Trust me I'm not scared of you personally.
It's refreshing to see someone so secure in their manhood. How's that middle age sports car thing working out? Any growth?
I see that four grade wit is alive and well.
Don't sweat it, tough guy. If I didn't have this wit to depend on, I'd probably have to buy a Corvette, too.
Technically, yes. 1SI filled out some loan forms. Again, 1SI didn't come to anyone's door with cash. Horseshoe picked them to help with the paperwork. You think that Horseshoe couldn't find anyone else to help with the paperwork if 1SI wasn't around?
Scared. I would hope not. Never thought that you would be scared of me personally. I'm not going to hurt anyone. Shoot, Shirley Temple could kick my ass. Wasn't my point at all.
Maybe you shouldn't be callin' names? I mean, since you want such "open" dialog.
I rather imagined VM would be here to gloat. I can deal with that aspect of it, although his perception remains askew.
VetteMan does make it difficult, and not because of the power of his arguments, as those have yet to emerge in coherent form.
Allow me to shrug before continuing.
On shielding identity: Every word I've written here for six years has had my name affixed to it; my name is clearly attached to my profile, and available for all to see.
Every comment here and everywhere else, anywhere else, same deal. It's always clearly me, come what may. If it hurts me, it hurts me. If it hurts others, I'm right there to accept responsibility. When I signed on to be a man, that's the way it was explained to me.
Did you skip that course?
1S1: If it took 1Si 100 hours to process paperwork for SOMEONE ELSE'S money and make a handful of phone calls, cool. Label me very skeptical, and be prepared to invoice it.
"If not for them no money" is true only in the sense that Horseshoe dealt them into the game. Fact: No casino, no 1Si marketing ploys.
Besides our own work and money, the entity that helped most in starting our business was Main Source Bank, period. Where do you think the collateral from the loans came from? (Hint: Our pre-existing properties and business, and our houses, aka sweat equity).
1Si had as much to do with Main Source's financial help as the man in the moon. Is Dalby living moonside now?
We've provided thousands upon thousands of words to document all this. I can only write words on a page, but sadly, I can neither compel reading them nor reading comprehension. It takes a village, or a school, or something. I hope 1Si's political appointees haven't outlawed schools yet.
One last thing.
Yes, I know your name even though I'm graciously permitting you to hide it and abuse the privilege.
You're welcome, even though personally, I think you should have more integrity than that. I do -- and I'm one of them nasty liberals.
Anyway, you should know my name by now. Please try spelling Roger correctly, eh? It warms the heart of an old Commie to witness periodic outbreaks of literacy.
Thank you, VM.
Corvettes are cool!
If it came down to it I'd rather have a Corvette than to be witty on this blog.
Blog coolness would only pertain to about 12 people on here, vette coolness last forever and all of the public can see you driving around.
I just had a moment of clairvoyance.
Most of the blog in the coming post will focus more on Vette's grammar and not what he is actually stating.
The funny thing is, besides the attacts on 1Si, I bet there would be several things we would agree on.
And Thanks Corvettes are cool, a lot cooler than me.
It continues to amaze that the most basic concepts of free speech elude so many.
Buy what? Talking about a 'vette? I never made any comment about it. You addressed it Lam, I'm assuming you meant Iam. Whatever.
I asked questions that you don't ever seem to want to answer. No one is stopping you from having a dialog here except yourself. Do you realize that your definition of open minded, seems to mean only agreeing with you?
I've known Roger for a long time and he has never revealed a name to my knowledge. We've sat and talked about "XYZ" and he may say, "You would be surprised who XYZ is but I can't tell you." Often, they finally "come out" themselves. Healthblogger is one notable that I can remember. I don't think that you have to worry about your identity being revealed. I know that I would be disappointed in Roger if he broke that promise.
I'm beginning to wonder if you guys even live in New Albany.
It's obvious to me who "vette" guy is.
Just look around downtown.
I think that one should have enough integrity to put their name to their words but, other than that, I don't care about his/her identity. Or yours for that matter.
Mark, the remark about the Corvette was ment for Jeff.
He is assuming I have one and need it to make me a man. That was his little jab at me.
Jeff,
When you grow up maybe you can buy one.
Now that the personal jabs are done. Maybe we can talk ideas and views.
It's seems funny to me that a group like this that comments so much about a origination like 1Si. You say they are not relevant but you contune and try to hurt the people working there because you don't like the Board members who backed Republicans because of there stance on one issue ie: small business.
The fact is if you don't like the views get out and run on your ideas.
So every know the facts I don't work for 1Si. My company has used there services and I beleave in the help they have given to small business and larges business alike. They have worked hard to bring in companies and try to promote job growth in Southern IN. I beleave they have helped seveal companies thought southern IN.
Roger,
If at any time you can not be a man of honor, and no longer keep my name to your self. You can remove me from the blog. I have come to the relation that the door for exchange ideas and maybe having people like your self have the will to see a different view. Is not possable here. You have set this blog up to be closed for a reason and now its clear you want to control the dialog with only one view.
BTW. Roger,
I have a friend that spells his name Rodger. My fault.
Roger, your weekly public chats, are they ment for your precint only?
"Donny you're out of your element! Dude, the Chinaman is not the issue here!"
How great would it be for a group of nine Independents and Mayor run this next election?
Jeff, Ed loosing in the downtown precincts is not an indication of people paying attention.
It can be construed differently. Personally I find it quit logical that Ed wouldn't carry these precincts.
Most of the areas you mentioned are failed neighborhoods relying on Government handouts: NSP, CDBG, Section 8, ect.
I don't think Ed's platform focused on the above mentioned.
Ed not carrying these precincts could allude to “those areas” not paying the attention.
Be it as it is, Ed's victory, to me, was not a vote against Gibson, but a vote for Ed. Ed has done a good job as a freshman rep. I hope he evolves and becomes better, and more aware at the diversity he represents. And that he needs to lighten up on teacher unions.
RemberC,
I agree with you, very good observation.
If you think misleading constituents constitutes a good job, there's probably not much I can say to change your mind.
Please enlighten me to what you are refering to.
Facts Please
Roger I'm behind your 6 point platform. I think a clear platform would help with the apathy that Jeff pointed out.
I'm surprised there hasn't been one created previously.
Strong Neighborhoods would have to make my list.
RC, I disagree. I don't think that these votes were for Ed per se. They were for the Republican candidates, whoever he or she might be. If this vote had been for individuals, there would have been a closer split between Republicans and Democrats. This was an anti-Democrat, anti-Obama vote at all levels. Not one contested race in this county was one by a Democrat. It didn't matter who was running; it only mattered to which party they belonged. It's high time to make these local elections non-partisan. There is nothing about being a county commissioner, county council member, auditor, assessor, school board member, township trustee that is affected in any way by party membership. We need to elect people because they can do the job; not because of a label that's been attached to them.
Add mayor, city council member, etc. It just doesn't matter. When elected officials have to answer to the electorate for who they are or what they've done, then we'll see some changes. As long as they answer to the party committee (or 1SI), then we'll continue to have the crap that occurred yesterday.
And, finally, for whatever it's worth, not only can you get my name by clicking on my pen name, I also have my picture on each posting. I just wish everyone would do the same.
RC,
A start:
Ed's newspaper columns were often very biased, particularly against teachers and their union as you mentioned. At one point, he related that he was seeking increased funding flexibility and just couldn't understand why teachers wouldn't support it. He knew when he wrote it there was another funding bill that teachers did support. He called the bill teachers supported a political union bill in an attempt to discredit it while failing to mention the tens of thousands he received from special interest groups whose positions he supported, including education issues. Clere says education shouldn't be politicized but only calls out Democrats for doing it, never his own party, even when people like State Ed Superintendent Tony Bennett are out stumping for Republican candidates on education issues. He participates in partisan wrangling while criticizing it. Much of his criticism has been nothing more than partisan wrangling itself.
When the school closings hit the fan due to budget cuts, he told the public via his column that the property tax caps had almost nothing to do with it. Only after being called out on that here and elsewhere, he admitted that the caps did have a significant effect but then pointed fingers at other elected officials (all Democrats) while admonishing the public to not place blame on Republcians, pointing out that he technically hadn't voted for the funding changes the caps made necessary, even though he supported the caps both as a candidate (said they didn't go far enough) and as a sitting rep while state revenue projections kept dropping lower and revenue kept coming in even lower than projected.
He said the state has "historically" controlled a majority of school operating funds implying it's been that way a long time. It's only been that way since earlier this decade when that control went from about 35% to about 65%. Due to the caps, it's now much more than that and the state controls almost all school operating funds. How's that for the government "staying out of the way" as Clere has said it should do?
With all those school funding issues at hand, Clere voted for a bill that gives special tax breaks to people who donate to private school scholarship funds. The law specifically states that individuals who donate to public schools are ineligible for the tax breaks. Clere received a 2008 campaign donation from a national group who supports such measures of $41,500. That's more than all but three sitting state reps at the time had received from the state teachers union but I didn't see him mention it as the All Children Matter bill or demonize the group's involvement in educational politics, did you? I guess you don't do that when you're the one collecting the money while projecting "a poor little ol' me dealing with these lobbyists" image.
His campaign literature often mentions that his children are in school and his wife's a teacher. He doesn't explain that they attend and work in a private school, though. That would project a different attitude and/or set of values that he apparently isn't eager to share. Have you ever seen a piece of mass distributed Clere campaign lit that touts his support for private schools and increasing their funding, even if it comes at the expense of public schools as the bill above does? I haven't.
didn't most people vote straight ticket?
It was a vote against the Democratic party.
So, we have vette guy and Avanti dude, maybe I should change my name to Corollacitizen?
SBAdvanti,
I agree we need to get rid of party affiliation for local elections, and I think beyond that.
The founding fathers wanted it that away but it changed quickly.
We agree that Ed needs to lighten up on teachers but some of your arguements are "subjective" for the lack of a better word.
I see them at differentiating degrees. I don’t hold people to that high of a standard when they say “long time” or "I send my children to school" and it can be subjectively misinterpreted.
"the tens of thousands he received from special interest groups whose positions he supported"
"Clere received a 2008 campaign donation from a national group who supports such measures of $41,500."
can you site this?
Some of us have also been unhappy with 1si long before they came out of the lobbyist closet and endorsed candidates. Their damn-the-torpedos approach to the ORBP and their double-speak on tolling ("We don't support tolling, but we need every single bit of this $4 billion dollar project to be built regardless of whether it's needed or affordable or not") has not helped their case. 1si CEO Michael Dalby's Tribune piece wherein he said that the 87% of us who oppose tolls and the current ORBP plan is a "demonstrably small group of people" with a "delusional vision" wasn't particularly endearing either.
Ed Clere also took campaign money from these folks, and whaddya know, he's touting the 1si/ORBP party line that no one really *wants* tolls, but we absolutely have to build all this stuff,and there's absolutely no other way around it. I personally don't like the idea that any candidate is bought and sold, no matter what organization or corporation is doing the buying or selling.
I knew some of what Jeff posted regarding Clere's education platform and experience, but not all of it. None of it has made me feel I could trust this guy with the fate of public education in this state. While I'm slightly less bothered by a state rep sending her or his kids to private school than a public school board member doing the same, it still strikes me as somewhat dubious that his self constructed persona and narrative is as a champion of public education when he so obviously trusts in it so little that he won't even send his kids to public school (or maybe he just doesn't want them to be tainted by rubbing shoulders with us plebes?). And yes, I understand there are plenty of religious reasons to send kids to private schools; I'm a product of Catholic schools myself. But I have a hard time trusting candidates on their education platform and legislative accomplishments when their own children are never going to be subject to whatever legislative agenda they're pushing (unless it's one that will siphon funding to their private school at the detriment of the public schools we plebes send our kids to).
Democrats(even real ones)are not saints. There, feel better? Please also note that several of us IMMEDIATELY condemned the Democrats for their mailers about Ed Clere. Publicly and with our names attached.
VetteMan, I have no problem with 1SI endorsing candidates, just don't come to NA and ask for taxpayer dollars to do it. (Actually, doesn't that sound like a "conservative" position?) I also echo Karen, for most of us the problem began long before they endorsed any candidates. Many of us feel that spending twice as much for very little gain over just the EE bridge is the classic definition of a boondoggle. (Wow, spending less--what a fiscally conservative position).
RemCharm,
Don't know where Jeff got his figures but a quick search found this:
Indiana Chamber of Commerce $57,500
All Children Matter $41,500
House Republican Campaign Committee of Indiana $39,616
Hoosiers for Economic Growth $10,000
Sira $1,660
Arbaugh Marketing & Design LLC $1,600
Charles L. Gary $1,000
Blue Sky Foundation Inc. $1,000
Lyle J. Stuckie $1,000
Jesse Ballew Enterprises $1,000
2008 donors according to Ballotpedia.org
Hmm. Ballew? Perhaps the single most interesting name on the list.
Republicans used the private school tax credits as a bargaining chip in the 2009/2010 budget negotiations. Daniels and Bennett pushed for $5 million in credits but eventually settled for $2.5 million.
According to Derek Redelman, VP of the Indiana Chamber of Commerce (Clere's largest 2008 donor, $57.5K), his organization has helped lead the charge for the credits since 1997.
The House Republican Caucus has promised to "enhance" the private school tax credit program as a part of their current platform. They've also promised to "enhance funding" for virtual schools. In Indiana, those are currently run by a private company out of Baltimore.
So let's be clear: At a time when public school funding is being substantially cut and local schools closed, Clere and his brethren have been increasing private school funding and hope to do more of it.
I wonder if the Tribune will give Clere free reign again to spew his one-sided "reporting" in the absence of any fact checking and actual journalism? It's just our public schools. Why worry, right?
It' also worth mentioning that, to my knowledge, there's no limit on the types of private schools that the tax credit funded scholarships can be used for. That means public money can be handed over to religious institutions.
Funny, when I received Clere's big mea culpa letter about education during the campaign, there was no mention of using public money to fund religious institutions. I wonder why?
I wasn't even aware they'd moved to funding scholarships to private schools like that. There's an interesting case from Arizona that just got argued before the Supreme Court on a scheme that sounds very similar. One question the justices asked was why Arizona didn't simply set up a voucher program like other states have, which has also be declared constitutional previously. Their answer was that their constitution doesn't allow them to fund religious schools in any way. So they basically set up this pass through where the program was administered by a private third party so the state could say it wasn't directly funding religious schools, some private party was. I'll be interested in the ruling on this one, especially since it sounds similar to Indiana's program.
Also, why on earth would they set up a program like that so that people couldn't deduct donations to public schools? I mean I know *why* philosophically, but you'd think they'd realize that sets themselves up for a constitutional challenge when donations to private, largely religious schools would be eligible for something that donations to public schools are not.
Jeff, please (please) put the contents of your previous comments on the marquee. The comments here are not serachable, and this is too valuable to lose.
Iamhoosier said:
"I have no problem with 1SI endorsing candidates, just don't come to NA and ask for taxpayer dollars to do it."
I just want to make one thing clear, 1Si did not give any money to the people they supported. They came out in favor of there business positions no more. There was no Tax dollars used.
One more thing;
As I have said in the past, I agree with you on just building the EE bridge first. The problem is John Yarmouth was on the River Fields Board and to slow the progress, he and others have made it a all on none issue. I beleave the Toll issue came up to try to kill it all together.
I do not want tolls , but I say no matter what just build the damn things already.
I never said that they gave money. Let's be clear on that. They asked for taxpayer money to support their organization, which then endorsed candidates. Not illegal but ethically very questionable. Surely you can see that.
I will sometime soon, Roger. This is the beginning of what I hope (depending on time available) will become a regular Clere legislation watch.
Clere has been misleading on more issues than just this. The general fund is facing a $1 billion shortfall and the unemployment insurance fund is $2 billion in the hole with interest on borrowed federal money coming due as well. According to Clere, he's proud he helped balance the state budget with no tax increases. There are accounting and reporting tricks and then there is reality. Clere chose the former.
Clere voted against legislation in 2009 that would've shored up the unemployment fund (it passed anyway) and then later voted to delay implementing that legislation (which passed, too). As a result, the state has continued to borrow federal money. When it comes to local schools and governments, though, Clere says they all have to tighten their belts like Hoosier families and live within their means. Hypocrite.
And that's not even counting the billions of dollars Indiana got in federal stimulus funds to shore up its budget while Daniels and Clere railed against reckless federal spending - simultaneously taking credit for balancing that budget, mind you.
That the Tribune allowed Clere to ramble on for so long last time with nary a challenge is a joke. He should turn over a portion of his campaign money to Kozarovich.
I'm the one who said Clere took money from "these folks". In truth, that wasn't well worded. He took campaign money from people on the ORBP, such as Kerry Stemler who hired Michael Dalby as 1si's CEO. Stemler at one point ran 1si, IIRC. So yeah, follow the money.
Jeff: While I appreciated the idea of our elected representative reporting on what he's doing up in Indy, it's pretty obvious there will be bias in what a politician says at his/her free bully pulpit no matter who it is, and it would be nice if the Tribune acknowledged that and offered counterpoint such as your legislative watch idea to run beside whatever Clere propaganda they print.
VetteMan,
So we just bend over? Spend money that doesn't need to be spent? Accept tolls on existing and already paid for bridges? Just blindly accept the acts of an unelected authority?
Please, stop and think about this. How many times have you blamed liberals for just throwing money at problems? I would agree that sometimes they have been guilty of that. Why would you want to do the same thing that you have condemned before?
I see your point, and I'm sure you feel the same about Teachers, Firefighters and Police backing a candidate, most of them Democrats.
They are paid from taxpayer money and they put out ads to support their organization and the candidate in which supports there personal views. Then these same endorsed candidates if elected help raise our taxes to get the pay increases, bigger retirement plans and job security for bad employees. Their supporters.
Not illegal but ethically very questionable. Surely you can see that.
The problem is 1Si is out there trying to help business that maybe owned by your friends and neighbors.
I actually don't like organizations--any organizations--backing candidates. The Surpreme Court ruling giving corporations full citizenship disgusted me. They should have no extra say in our government, and I'd prefer they keep their money out of it, regardless of who they are. Our government is supposed to be for the People, not the Corporations, and if we could outlaw campaign contributions from businesses, I'd be all for it. They aren't people, they aren't citizens. Private citizens? Sure. Corporations and organizations? No.
But there is a flaw in your logic regarding 1si vs unions (at least I presume you're comparing them to unions, not the actual teachers, police officers, fire fighters, etc). The teachers, etc are employees. The union bargains on their behalf in terms of pay and benefits, but it doesn't go to the city council and say 'Hey, give us $70,000 for improving the economy" (or schools, or what have you). Their salary and benefits are not the same as 1si's outstretched hand for vague services never delineated or quantified. And while 1si can claim their lobbyist arm is separate from their economic development arm, it's hard to believe that's completely true of any lobbying organization. Money mixes. So again, why should 1si receive tax money to lobby and endorse candidates?
And also again, the notion of any organization funding candidates and telling them how to vote is distasteful to me. Even more so when they're expecting tax dollars to do so.
And by "Private citizens? Sure. Corporations and organizations? No." I meant that in regard to campaign contributions.
Where we differ is that the police are actually doing something for NA(grin). How's that research going on what 1SI has done for NA to deserve 70K(initial request)?
I'm asking too many questions of you and not giving you a chance to respond. Several are unanswered, so I will give you chance to catch up. Again, my fault.
Michael Dalby speaks about political endorsements and economic development in the same paragraph and then claims the two are separately funded. Does that mean a 1Si administrator is keeping track of each individual word and paying him accordingly on a percentage basis?
Karen said 'vague services never delineated or quantified"
I think my point was right on, If you want to be a teacher, policeman etc you must belong to the union. They know that going in so they by them taking the job infact they support the unions.
That being said, I have learned you can never change the minds of some no matter what.
Here are a few programs that 1Si does for business and remember 1Si is a nonprofit where unions are very much for profit. If you want to be a teacher, policeman etc you must belong to the union. they know that going in so they by taking the job infact support the unions.
Just a few Programs from 1Si.
Network of Champions - is a monthly series of relationship-building programs geared to help both Indiana & Louisville business executives, owners, and professionals connect to decision makers, build a referral base, and brand their product/service. The only event of its kind.
5 0'Clock Network - monthly event regularly draws up to 200 business professionals. Networks offer word of mouth exposure, name recognition, and branding.
Women in Business
A monthly luncheon for professional business women to engage in networking.
Minority & Women Business Owners Conference
Annual Business Awards
Business Expo
Greener Region Conference
to name a few.
One more thing.Iamhoosier,
I know this will not make you happy ether so I have requested some more info. and unlike some on the blog, I do have a job and not for 1Si. So if you will please give me some time.
I know of course it will never be enough for you and someothers because anyone could do what they do and no one could do it as good of a job as you can.
Right(wink)
"That being said, I have learned you can never change the minds of some no matter what. "
Looks like that applies equally to yourself. There have been plenty of points raised in this thread that you have ignored. I think on this side of the discussion, I've conceded certain points. Don't see that much from you. I also don't see why a handful of business luncheons or meet and greets are worthy of $70,000 in taxpayer money, nor how much those kinds of activities truly impact the area. Those folks also pay dues to be members of 1si, and those dues ostensibly pay for that stuff.
Jeff Gillenwater said...
Michael Dalby speaks about political endorsements and economic development in the same paragraph and then claims the two are separately funded
I would like to point out that our Ass of a President is on our tax dime and he flew around trying to get Liberals elected. Thats not working for over 1/2 of the country and we know that expense did not come from two are separate funds.
That was a waist of money now wasn't it. Just look at his ROI.
;-)
Waste of money or not, *every* president does that. Did you complain when George W. did that? How about when Dick Cheney came to Jeff and charged all his security detail to Jeff even though it was nothing more than a campaign stump for Republicans?
Karen
"Looks like that applies equally to yourself"
I going to prove your statement 1/2 right. (shrug)
I have agreed with several points on the bridge issue.
Where I will not change is that there are a lot of good people at 1Si doing a lot of good things for companies, Woman, Minority's and the environment, all programs you Liberals say you support.
Because some people don't like the Board Members (not employees of 1Si) or the current President of 1Si (Mike D.)they are blasting the entire organization.
Have you ever been to a event? Have you ever asked someone that works there putting on the programs or the people that attend them what they do and how it has helped there business.
I know for a fact some of 1Si employees did not like the decision support anyone, but they work there and did not get a voice in the matter. Now they are getting blasted by people that don't have a clue what they do or care.
Just like people that bitch about those Teachers, Firefighters etc.
Do you see my point?
Like Karen said, you really need to look in the mirror. You've ignored so much in this thread.
A little background on me. I'm 57 & the VP of a company with 40+ employees that is celebrating our 25th anniversary this year. Helped start the company. Doesn't make me a genius by any means but I do have some background in business. We deliver products(via trucks)over a 5 state area, so I also have some knowledge of transportation issues. I don't trust business(especially big business)any more than I do unions. Probably less.
Networking events and business awards?????? Stop, my sides are hurting. Seriously, all nice things. Possibly/Probably valuable to the members. It's an organization that charges dues to belong. That's cool but hardly justification for asking for tax dollars. If they want to put together, say, a brochure on the business advantages of being in New Albany, then present a plan along with cost estimates and ask for EDIT funds to do that--I think that should be considered but to fund their networking lunches...
Again, seriously, take all the time you need. I understand busy. I'll be out of pocket much of next week. We can even continue by email should you wish. Address in my profile.
OK Karen ND time...
I agree with you I think its wrong no matter what US President.
If there in office they should be doing the country business.
If there out they should pay for the security on the campaign trips.
I have said that for years. anyone in office should be doing there job, working for us.
again your right,
We have to ad Bill"please take a knee"Clinton at UofL this past week. to the waist of tax payer dollars.
I'll say it, I don't think 1SI is worthless. I think some of the policy positions they have taken are potentially very harmful to NA. And you can't get an answer--at least I haven't been able to. The one answer I did get from them on their support of of the bridges project was, "We are afraid that if we don't build both bridges now we will never get the second bridge." There was no justification for the second bridge, just the desire to spend the money.
I think you are projecting your "all yes or all no" approach to things on some of us. It would be awfully wordy to always have to write "the board of 1SI and the president Mr. Dalby". If it will make things clearer and make you feel better, I can do that.
I don't think anyone is casting dispersions against the employees of 1si, merely their board and CEO. If someone has an issue with the way FedEx does business or Nike or a teacher's union, or what have you, the issue is usually with the people running that business/organization--the top brass--not with the employees themselves.
Also, I think you paint with an extremely broad brush with the "you liberals" thing. I'm personally independent and can't stand political pigeon holes. No party speaks to my exact combination of viewpoints. I typically vote independent in May (which is to say, I only vote for school board candidates), but I've voted in Democratic and Republic primaries depending on the year, the people running, the issues that interest me, etc. I'm socially fairly liberal and fiscally more moderate. You might say that makes me liberal, but I'm also for gun rights and not fond of unions. So please, keep your political epithets. They certainly don't further intelligent discussion on issues.
"dispersions" should be "aspersions"
iamhoosier:
"the board of 1SI and the president Mr. Dalby". If it will make things clearer and make you feel better, I can do that."
Mark, thank you.
The point I have been trying to make and I must suck at it.
They are real people, some of witch would go out of there way to help anyone they could.
But for a decision based on supporting a political view not shared by all they are being attacked with little or no voice.
I know how hard some of them work and I know what they try to accomplish for the Southern IN. business and their members.
For the record, most of us here have documented our respect for a few of 1Si's employees over the years. The problem is, they're often undermined by the leadership just as much as the community at large. As I've mentioned before, they read about 1Si's stances in the newspaper with the rest of us.
If an organization was genuinely concerned about the well-being of very small businesses in the region as a primary focus, don't you think they would:
a) consult their employees who deal with those businesses as a part of establishing policy
and
b) place a good number of those small business owners/members in positions of decision making power on the board of directors/policy board/economic development board?
1Si does neither.
Kevin Hammersmith, the current board president, will openly admit that 1Si's focus is on what he calls "large, industrial customers". That was his answer when I asked him about the lack of very small business representation within the organization. My response was that they should just be open and honest about that, their intentions in general, and about the specific things they do for specific businesses.
Much of their stated intentions, concerns, and accomplishments over the past few years simply haven't matched up to the reality of their actions. When they're asking for money it tends to get worse and those very small businesses are trotted out as evidence with 1Si's impact on them often overstated. I'll never support giving money to an organization that's absolutely not trustworthy.
It's a shame some of their employees become identified with Dalby and crew's BS, but that's who the organization chooses to make the public face. Given the literally unbelievable crap he's spewed in the past few years, I wouldn't hire Dalby to walk a dog but I'm not on the board.
Jeff,
To your point:
a) consult their employees who deal with those businesses as a part of establishing policy - Most companies do not do this and I would not expect for that to have changed the minds of the board.
to your 2nd point.
b) place a good number of those small business owners/members in positions of decision making power on the board of directors/policy board/economic development board?
Listed below are the Board Members
Bennett & Bennett Insurance, Inc.
Budget Services & Supplies, LLC
True Colors Tanning, LLC
Community Action of Southern Indiana, Inc.
Your Community Bank
Monroe Shine & Co., Inc., CPA's
New Washington State Bank
Duke Energy
Koetter Koetter Woodworking, Inc.
The Travel Authority
PNC Bank
Eagle Steel Products, Inc.
Int’l Center for Long Term Care Innovation
Purdue University, College of Technology
Wells Fargo Advisors
Floyd Memorial Hospital & Health Services
BeechTree IT Solutions
American Commercial Lines
Clark County REMC
Horseshoe Casino
IUS – School of Business
Kightlinger & Gray, LLP
Talis Group, Inc.
According to the SBA a small business has less then 500 employees. that would make 11 on the list.
As for the statment "Kevin Hammersmith, the current board president, will openly admit that 1Si's focus is on what he calls "large, industrial customers".
I just sopke to someone with 1Si and that is not the Chambers focus. We do need large business to employee more people and help support the tax base but they are driven to help Southern IN. Small business.
As has been mentioned here many times, the SBA's definition is not what I'm talking about.
92% of all businesses in the state of Indiana have 25 or fewer employees. Go through your list again. Include the policy and economic groups as well. Law firms and accounting groups who spend a great deal of time representing large corporate interests don't count in my book. How many in all three groups?
Who did you speak with at 1Si? Anonymous references won't play. What's their name?
If you don't like the board president's statement, take it up with him. I just reported what he told me.
Ok Jeff, You have a book on what is and is not a Small Business. The SBA does not work for you but its what the Goverment goes by.
Look out Mark, according to Jeff, your a BIG BAD Bussiness.
"Who did you speak with at 1Si? Anonymous references won't play. What's their name?"
"If you don't like the board president's statement, take it up with him. I just reported what he told me."
Lets see, I took your word for what you said he said and you cant take mine.
Call the 1Si (812)945-0266 tommorow and ask for one of the VP. They all have been working for the Chamber for over 10years and they are the people that I support.
Lets see, I took your word for what you said he said and you cant take mine."
Vetteman what you identified hear is hypocrisy. It is the kind that seems to accompany many a post on NAC.
For an example Jeff called Clere a liar but as for facts he only offered up his opinion relating to issues he disagrees with Ed on. Jeff claims Ed is biased and therefore a liar but Jeff is biased himself.
Jeff accuses people of not using facts but he offers opinion. Mind you that there is nothing wrong with having an opinion but I would say it is wrong to hold people up to a standard that you don't hold yourself to.
RemCha's joking, right?
Meanwhile, we told you so. Clere and Grooms kept saying we must wait to discuss tolls, and a mere two days after the election, at the Bridges Authority meeting, Kerry Stemler -- 1Si's chief puppeteer and donor to both -- is the one to gently break the tolling news while brandishing the GOP's KY-Jelly.
"He said the state has "historically" controlled a majority of school operating funds implying it's been that way a long time. It's only been that way since earlier this decade when that control went from about 35% to about 65%. Due to the caps, it's now much more than that and the state controls almost all school operating funds."
Here Jeff admits that state control preceded Ed's election and caps but throughout his post he criticizes Ed and caps for all the problems.
By your standard Jeff this makes you a liar and a deceiver
“He participates in partisan wrangling while criticizing it. Much of his criticism has been nothing more than partisan wrangling itself.”
Jeff and Roger throughout the campaign had criticized Ed without criticizing Gibson all but one time and it had to do with a mailing.
the news that I heard is the report won't be out until next year and the councils were premature for their votes.
Ed said when the authority makes a decision then it is time to talk. I don't see anything wrong with that.
The bridge issue on NAC was a Straw man that you created for the election and clearly no one bought it.
The only race that came close to effecting tolls was the Mayoral race and if you ask me Fisher was more of a Republican than Heiner. You didn't even mention their race and the impact it would have.
Other than Jeff touting Green who didn't have a chance.
I'm really more interested in your idea about a platform that people can look towards for forward movement.
Or backward what ever.
Don't leave it in the air or let Jeff talk you out of it. It is needed.
There is no plan for New Albany.
I personally think leaders want the status quo because almost all of their business models are structured off of it.
Also last council meeting is a perfect example where zoning is a weak way of planning any city
Did you miss the coverage today where Kerry Stemler said there will be tolls? Here: http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20101104/NEWS01/311040056/Ohio+River+Bridges+financing+plan+due+next+month They're even talking about letting private toll collection companies just keep all the toll money. I guess for shits n giggles rather than for paying off construction debt.
I don't understand why we're supposed to wait till they come out with a piece of paper saying what they're already telling all the media before we stand against their plan. If Ed Clere or Ron Grooms had come out before the election forcefully saying they recognize this project won't be funded without tolls and yes, they want everything even if it takes tolls, they would not have been elected/re-elected. They knew this, so instead, they punted. "We don't know what they're going to propose". Bullshit. Tolls are absolutely part of the plan, and Stemler's talked openly about it for months. The longer we wait to mobilize, the harder it will be to affect any change in their plans. Of course, at this point, with Ed Clere and Ron Grooms toeing Mitch's "gotta build it all even if we need tolls" party line, and with both accepting money from ORBP people, we're not likely to see any assistance from our duly elected representatives of We the People.
RememberCharlemagne said
"what you identified hear is hypocrisy. It is the kind that seems to accompany many a post on NAC."
That's all I ever see on the Blog. I have been told I never agree with anyone but I have said several times I agree with building the EE Bridge first and I dislike having tolls. I just have my eyes open to the real world.
I have been told I did not show what 1Si does to help Southern IN. but when I bring up some very good programs they discount them and only comment about the networking and say anyone could do that.
When I personally talk to a VP of the Chamber (who I did not ask if I could use there name) that was my falt. I asked if the statement Jeff made was correct as to the foucs of 1Si, I was told absolutely not. Jeff doubts my word.
I have no reason to lie. No one but Roger knows my name right. (I say that knowing a few others know me.)
BTW
Just to stir up more shit, I also agree with everything you just said. :-) and that's no lie.
No I heard it on the radio earlier today.
The process is far from over.
VetteMan, you and I have absolutely agreed on the bridge/tolling issues more than disagreed.
As for 1si, I brushed off those programs mostly because in an organization like 1si, that's exactly what membership dues would/should be paying for. Not tax dollars. Just my opinion. They requested tax dollars for their economic development efforts. Luncheons, award banquets, and conferences don't scream "economic development" to me. They don't scream "creating jobs" to me. They're good networking opportunities, but not something that should be on the taxpayer dime.
I once was a member of an organization that had a PAC that lobbied government regarding social issues. However, that organization wasn't directly asking the government for tax dollar hand outs to the organization. Using 1si's logic, that group should have come before the state house and senate saying, in effect, "Hey, we improve the lives of the poor by lobbying on their behalf, so while you're considering legislation maintaining children's health care at current levels, can you slip us a cool million while you're at it? You know, to recognize the fact that we help keep children healthy?" Something like that would have been equally ridiculous in my mind.
RC: "The process is far from over."
Again, Stemler is quoted ad nauseum in all local media for at least the past 4-6 months as saying there will be tolls. He hasn't decided exactly how much he'll soak us for, or which of our already paid-for bridges he'll put them on, but he has said there will be tolls, and he says it more and more definitively with each interview. Again, I don't care if the process is far from over, I see now reason to wait until it's a done deal before fighting it.
Downward folk implosion, Red
lights and gas pedals
We are not going anywhere;
We're there.
VetteMan wrote, "Look out Mark, according to Jeff, your a BIG BAD Bussiness."
Some days, unfortunately, he would be correct. I'm only the VP and there are limits to my power. Besides that, I'm not perfect. Not even close.
Just a brief comment on hypocrisy. I believe that you wrote that we liberals lost and should shut up and get over it. I asked if that is what the conservatives did two years ago? Let me ask you another one, did you every say or think that some who picked on Bush and maybe went overboard should show more respect because we were at war? "Ass of a President" ring a bell?
Finally, I did not say and do not think that networking is not a useful tool. Shoot, maybe that's too many "nots". Networking is a fine tool.(and perhaps you weren't referring to me) 1SI is a private organization. If my tax dollars just go to it in a general way, then I should automatically be a member and allowed to attend. Do the brochure(or something specific) that I mentioned earlier and that is an entirely different matter. EDIT funds would be appropriate. And they wouldn't have to let me attend--big side benefit. (grin)
Jameson
Seen Mr. Clere yet to find out why, as our state representative, he would not answer and subsequently deleted a legitimate question from a constituent?
I'm really tired of people talking about how honorable he is. His supporters even admit they can't answer why. Mr. Clere is surely aware of the controversy and he has no answered it either. Or maybe he will, now that the election is over. Honorable? Not by any definition that I have seen.
Iamhoosier,
You are right on the feelings I have for this President. I would tell you that before the last 8 years under Bush I would have never showed disrespect to the office even after Clinton which speaks for it self.
The way that the Left and most Liberal Media treated Bush, I have just excepted that as a way to express my displeasure and sometimes hate for the President. Would my Grandfather be proud, NO.
Yes that is hypocrisy,the only thing I can say I did not start it so the beat goes on.
To clear somethings up on 1Si that you and some others have wrong.
1Si is a 3 part non- profit organization. With 3 separate budgets.
The Chamber Side - Runs the programs like Minority & Women Business Owners Conference, Business Expo, Greener Region Conference and networking like I have listed before. They get NO taxes dollars. Employees in that department are paid and the programs are ran from Members dues and sponsors only.
The "economic development" Side - From what I have been told is supported by Company's and investors to help bring in New Business and help Smaller Southern, IN. Company's find funding and grow. If any EDIT money where going anywhere it would be here, but to date very little ever has.
The 3rd part - Public Policy & Investor Relations.
Like I said before, I don't work for 1Si. I have just tried to support the people that work there and are doing a great job for this area and their members. Maybe give them a voice. I'm not a writer I make mistakes. I just care about fairness and having someone see both sides.
Jeff you will have to take my word on that.
I was told a long time ago,
If you see something wrong fix it.
If you did something wrong admit it.
If you see someone being wronged help right it.
or something like that.
There you go, assuming again. I'm aware that there are "parts" to 1SI. So?
My company's trucks are in a separate corporation. I'm not listed at all on that corporation. There are legal reasons for that. Do you really think that I don't have a say over them? Remember, for all my background and position, I ought to be a Republican. I know a lot of the "tricks".
Your right Mark its all one big trick. I have run 3 small companies and I know how things work also.
The part you are missing is that they do not combine money. A nonprofit runs different than that of your company. Bookeep is very different etc.
Iamhoosier said
"ought to be a Republican. I know a lot of the "tricks""
No thanks we have enough RINO's already.
I'm not going to bother wading through all the misconceptions but:
Screen names don't have a "word" to rely on. Real people do, when they accept responsibility for what they say.
If you ever decide to do that, perhaps we can talk. Until then, you can ramble on here as long as Roger allows you to.
VetteMan,
I think we just about beat the 1SI issue to death. I see some good in 1SI. I also see some policy decisions that I believe will be and are extremely harmful to New Albany. You and I see "both sides". I think their policy stance(s) are much more harmful than the good they do. I'm just trying to point how, IN MY OPINION, they could be better.
Sorry, just saw your "combining funds" post. I think the IRS would disagree with you. Our companies are totally separate corporations. I think the IRS would have a lot to say about us combining funds, the same as they would about the non profits.
I wonder who paid the light bill when the "board of 1SI and president Mr. Dalby" held their meeting to choose endorsements?
Mark, I've said before I agree that Ed should have given you an answer to your question. Dose that not make him honorable?
I don't think so. Nobody's perefet not Jeff, you, nor me and I allow people to make mistakes because I know I'll make them too.
I make plenty of mistakes. If Mr. Clere would have answered the question and admitted that deleting it was the wrong thing to do, that I can see as a mistake. Not answering the question, deleting it and then not responding, all the while knowing that some constituents want to know why no answer and why was it deleted, is not a "mistake". Politely put, it's thumbing your nose at your constituents. That's dishonorable.
I don't mind being disagreed with. Hell, you and I getting married and we disagree a lot.
you make a good point
Currently at Rep. Clere's Facebook site, psychophants are posting regular expressions of praise about his nobility. His wife duly "likes" each one.
The election's over, but the hagiography goes on forever. It's enough to make a man hurl.
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