Sunday, September 07, 2008

It's a "sin" to drink Lite beer, but that's as far as it goes with me.

With the smoke finally clearing locally (ahem), I’m finally beginning to catch up. Scrum muddying really takes it out of a guy, and besides that, my knees are still toast after Friday’s thoroughly enjoyable Carnegie Center fundraiser.

Here’s one I missed from late August.

JOHNSON: Unite church and state, by Richard Johnson, (local Tribune columnist).

While there are many theories that try to explain what causes crime, only one of them in my opinion offers a complete explanation. The root cause of crime is a universal heart condition that the Bible calls sin.

As a longtime follower of Christ and an ordained minister of the gospel, I have served the Lord for many years, 15 of them in America’s prisons and jails …

I’ll cut to the chase. Johnson’s argument goes something like this:

Sin, not “fancy theories” (i.e., poverty, poor education, bad childhoods) leads to a chosen “lifestyle of crime”, which is a spiritual condition.

As such, “Government cannot do anything about sin; show me any government, anywhere, that can. Dealing with sin is the church’s job,” and the government’s job is preserving order, nothing more.

Therefore, the separation of church and state is an inefficient way of tackling crime because the state, which exists to preserve order, must have “allies” in the church who can deal with sin on spiritual terms.

Assertions of this nature never cease to amaze me. One wonders why the Founding Fathers even bothered with civil law if all they needed to do was mimeograph the teachings of one or the other Christian denominations and join certain areas of the Muslim world in shackling the legal system to one specific interpretation within a multiplicity of religious perspectives.

The concept of sin is undoubtedly a religious construct. Without sin’s purely conditional aspect of disobedience to God’s “word” – according to whatever “God” means within the framework of a specific religious worldview – the concept of sin is just about meaningless.

Johnson asserts that sin is the only “universal” explanation for crime, but that’s a fairly obvious over-simplification. When it comes to the behavior of a schizophrenic, there’s a better answer over at Wikipedia:

Increased dopaminergic activity in the mesolimbic pathway of the brain is consistently found in schizophrenic individuals.

If an undiagnosed (and untreated) schizophrenic commits a crime, was it the result of sin or bad brain chemistry? The schizophrenic made a choice, and “chose” sin, but how did he know what he was doing if the wiring in his brain is faulty?

And, what are we to make of God’s role in the creation of schizophrenia? If a supreme being created the brain and the brain is faulty, and if the schizophrenic commits a sinful crime as a result of what amounts to pilot error, then the crime and the sin were pre-determined. Free will, anyone? Making mistakes is one thing. Suffering from an illness that precludes the rationality necessary to make a sensible choice is something else entirely.

Johnson’s argument isn’t without an element of cleverness, though it’s an epistemological shell game. To make sense of sin, one must accept the existence of God. To accept the existence of both sin and God in this context implies plausibility of Johnson’s central point, that church and state should be anything but separate when it comes to crime.

Sorry. These are theistic back doors best left closed and locked. Johnson and his brethren are perfectly free to dispense spiritualistic solutions to personal problems, though not to graft them onto the secular law that governs the nation.

All these religious columnists lately! I may become a professional atheist yet.

See also: Making your own dirt: Why not evangelical atheism?

54 comments:

Daniel S said...

Sorry man, but the constitution does not gurantee seperation of church and state, only it says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". While judges find different meanings in that, to me it says there should not be a national religion, or people shouldn't be forced to go to church. Besides that, there is no freedom from religion.
Your argument is an interesting one, but also one commonly used. How can the same God who loves us condemn us? How can He give someone cancer, or AIDS or whatever the disease or illness. Well, if you believe the Bible, all of the Bible, then you have to take into account Adam and Eve and how we started dying because of their mistakes, which are transparent in our own mistakes each day. Second, I doubt seriously God is tabulating the "sins" of someone who can't control their mind. I think He holds into account those who know what they are doing. Additionally, and this is what gets a lot of "Christians", to believe in God you must also believe in the Devil, and you must realize that the evil and painful facts of our lives usually from him, i.e. a mental case or illness.
But on the same wavelink, allowing the moral right to take over government would be horrible. It would basically be the same as the Taliban in Afghanistan, in many respects. This country is supposed to be about freedom of choice, whether we all agree with those choices or not.

Highwayman said...

“Second, I seriously doubt God is tabulating the ‘sins’ of someone who can’t control their mind.”

Sorry Daniel but as usual you get caught in your own trap. If you believe the bible to be God’s Word, then you have to take it as it is written not as you wish it to be to fit your varying schemes.

So to follow the logic, if God is perfect, and all his creation is perfect and he created all that is, then the imperfections must be his perfect creation as well.

Further if as the church holds, he is the final judge of ALL, how is it that some get a pass and others do not?

Thanks but no thanks. I can’t swim so I’m not getting in that boat.

All4Word said...

daniel s? What part of "no law" do you not understand? If government takes a particular religious viewpoint and makes it law, that is an establishment of religion. No preference for religions, no persecution of religions.

Quite clearly, our government has regularly violated both precepts, but that doesn't make it right, no matter who your pastor is.

... said...

Separation of church and state is not designed to protect government, but to protect religion from a government who would use it for their own ends. The Taliban are not religious, they are merely using religion to rule.

Bush, etc., promote 'faith based' programs to co-op churches and get them dependent on federal programs and to be under the thumb of the government. They then pretend to be devout only to use it to paint their opposition with broad strokes. They also like to keep the funding away from community organizations.

Again, this is not religious or spiritual. They're just using a convenient tool with some very devious sleight of hand. Religious organizations ought to be very, very afraid of this. Churches would be playing with fire, giving away their own, very tenuous, constitutional guarantee of independence from the ruling party.

Funny how liberals are so much more protective of organized religion but get no credit for it! (Well, not really funny!)

John Manzo said...

Maybe this is because I come from a religious tradition that has usually come from this from a completely different directions.

We were the Pilgrims who left England to not be part of a state religion.

We were the people who dumped the tea in the harbor before the American Revolution.

We were the ones screaming about slavery.

We were the ones who were opposed to Vietnam.

We have classically advocated civil rights for all people, even when it is unpopular.

I would agree with the previous post. This separation serves the churches extremely well because it protects the churches from the government, but even more so, keeps the churches from being beholden to the government. Churches exist to speak truth to power. Churches exist to be the conscience of a people when something is wrong.

Admittedly churches do not always agree with one another as to what 'wrong' is. Part of the problem, in my mind, has been delighting in being political players so much that churches lose their 'truth speaking' ability.

If one reads the Gospels, Jesus treated the 'government' with indifference, even contempt. He stood before the representative of the Roman Empire, a man who had Jesus' very life in his hands, and, in the words of today, dissed him. There is nothing in the Gospels to give any indication that churches are supposed to 'play nice' with the government, let alone be a part of it.

Jesus would not have been invited to pray or speak at either political convention. Both parties would have been eviscerated by him for different things.

As a minister, I thank God daily for this separation and resist any attempt to make it otherwise. The freedom to speak the truth in the midst of bull#$% is a great gift that I would never want to let go of.

Daniel S said...

Religious debates are fun. Where in the Bible does it say everything is perfect? It said God was pleased, but I don't recall much about anything being perfect, especially after humans took over. Second, God created, I believe, so He has the power to judge. Just like you have the right, for the most part, to decide what happens on your property.
All4word-As I said, it comes down to your take. I believe no law means there should be no state-ordained religion that people are forced to go to. Like it or not, much of our nation was formed on Biblical principles, but also, many of those same principles appeared in documents before the Bible. So who determines what's a Biblical law and what isn't? Once again, your take. If we really saw Biblical law, there would be no abortion, you'd be thrown in jail for missing church on Sunday and there might not even be a death penalty. I think people confuse morals with religion, saying every moral law comes from the Bible so it shouldn't exist. Imagine a world like that...

Anonymous said...

The whole issue here is that Christians have an answer for evil. It comes from a supernatural realm. Even if you don't believe it or accept it, doesn't make it untrue.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

I want to here NAC, highwayman and all4word how they explain evil, where it comes from, and why these criminals do what they do.

Mental disabilities is a cop-out explanation and detracts from the conversation.

Jeff Gillenwater said...

Evel Knievel was from Montana.

Daniel Short said...

God also created free will in humans. We are not robots. We know what is right and moral and choose of our own free will to do otherwise.

Iamhoosier said...

Brussel sprouts.

B.W. Smith said...

The Devil is in the details.

Jeff Gillenwater said...

I thought the Devil was in Miss Jones.

B.W. Smith said...

He's everywhere!

Christopher D said...

"When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me."
~Emo Philips.

Unknown said...

lite beer ain't so bad, don't shoot me rog...

Randy said...

Kill all the bluejays you want, if you can hit them.

Highwayman said...

Long before the 1st Century AD had come to an end, the “church” of the Bible (i.e.; the inerrant “Word of God”) had already begun to abandon the precepts that “Christ” had outlined.

The head of the church (Christ) was soon displaced by mortal men who dared to claim equality with him. That was soon followed by the demise of the “local automity” of the church and replaced with a hierarchical progression that inevitably led to Rome.

By this time the “Church”, in order to survive, was sliding down the increasingly slippery slope of alliances with whichever military regime happened to be in power at the time.

All of a sudden the Pope was man kinds only link to “God.” Problem is in the instances where the military “God” trumped the creator “God” the Pope had little choice but to oblige.

If that meant the destruction and annihilation of entire societies, cultures, or races of people, so be it as long as the “Church” survived.

So began a long history of “the Church” either by active support or turning the other cheek in order to avoid annihilation walked hand in hand with whoever the big dog of the era was.

Gone was “love your neighbor as you love yourself”. Gone was the tolerance and empathy for the human condition that Christ had shown and asked his followers to promote.

In its place came robes of finery, elaborate edifices, and a haughty disdain for the common folk and their plight.

And even through the many splits, factions, and revisions that transpired during the centuries since, that basic hypocritical difference between the message and the action is still alive and well as we speak.

And you dare to ask me from whence evil came??

All4Word said...

HB: First of all, the discussion is about whether the teachings of a church should be injected into government, and whether the dictates of the government should be injected into the church.

Christians do not have an answer to evil. Christians are as subject to the intrusion of evil into their lives as anyone else, whether as victims or as instigators. Salvation is not an invisibility cloak, a magic wand, or an inoculation against evil. In this world, belief in your God or your god is no protection against evil.

How did Jesus teach you to pray? Thy will be done. Thy kingdom come, with glory and power forever.

Here's the news: Eternity ain't here yet.

Wherever you think evil comes from - the natural, the supernatural, or the ubernatural - it exists. If you believe in life after death and a place of sublime perfection, peace, and harmony, then that's where your faith will be shared by all around you.

In the context of NAC's discussion, you are, by implication, saying one of two things. We are all evil and should be locked up and condemned. Or only non-Christians (Remember, Christians "have an answer for evil") should be locked up and condemned.

No one appointed you to perform preliminary judgments in advance of the final one. Your church may teach you that you are sinless (or at least sinless since a date certain), but there is a big difference between being forgiven and being innocent/sinless/without evil.

Evil is. It's unlikely to go away in our lifetimes. Is it natural? We've no reason to think otherwise. Is it supernatural? That is believed on authority, not experience.

Whether or not someone believes in a supernatural creator God or not, evil is. It is illogical to say that nonbelievers are criminals and believers are not, which is the columnist's prescription for ending crime.

Government cannot do anything about sin. Nor should it. But it can and does do something about crime by defining it and meting out justice.

If you define crime as sin, we're all criminals.

Anonymous said...

Highwayman,

You still have not answered the question but from what I discern from your post is that you have been frustrated with organized religion and especially the Catholic Church.

It appears that you are blaming evil on organized social institutions or Religion and you therefore believe that people are inherently good in the absence of these. Are you saying there wouldn’t be evil if there weren’t social institutions or Religions?

If this is what you are saying, it is illogical. Religions are not inherently evil. Religions and all other social organizations are made up of people. If the organization is evil it is because people are evil. If people are evil, where did evil come from?



all4word

Evil is.

Now that flies in complete contradiction to all the science minded individuals that have posted on this site making claims that all we can know is what we can prove with science and natural explanations.

You are also incorrect with your statement Christians do not have an answer to evil.

Once again, Christians do have an explanation but many choose not to accept it even though it is as rational as your prior statement “Evil is”

No one has claimed that Christians are inoculated from evil. In fact, Christians know with certainty that we are as vulnerable as non-Christians and we believe that the stronger our faith, many times we are tempted even more by evil forces.

The author’s statement was that the root cause of crime is sin. He did not say that all sin is criminal. All evil is sinful, but not all sin is evil. The terms are not synonymous as you seem to cleverly imply in your writing.

Christian’s foundational belief is that all men are sinful. Men are not inherently good but men are inherently sinful. Even our salvation with our belief in Christ does not eliminate our sinful nature.

All men fall short of the Glory of God.

El Bastardo said...

Healthblogger wrote:
Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

I have a Dragon in My Garage

I want to here NAC, highwayman and all4word how they explain evil, where it comes from, and why these criminals do what they do.

I'll give this one a shot. "Evil" is essentially an abstract term that the human race applies the actions, thoughts, and motives of others that harm or threaten our (or our loved ones) well-being, without provocation.

The Bible, of course, states otherwise:

Amos 3:6 (KJV): shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Lamentations 3:38 (KjV): Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

El Bastardo said...

daniel s wrote:
Additionally, and this is what gets a lot of "Christians", to believe in God you must also believe in the Devil, and you must realize that the evil and painful facts of our lives usually from him, i.e. a mental case or illness.

So God didn't create the Devil? You're saying Christianity has 2 gods, one good and one evil?

El Bastardo said...

daniel s, again:
If we really saw Biblical law, there would be no abortion,

This is a prime example of one of Christianity's (and likely other faiths as well) biggest problems--very, very few of its faithful actually read the scriptures.

First off, abortion is not mentioned in the Bible. Sure, there's the "I knew you when you were in the womb," but that doesn't mean YHWH will spare you from death. After all, the Bible holds plenty of evidence that YHWH doesn't care about children outside the womb, so one could speculate that he cares no more for those inside. Here are just a few examples:

Genesis 22: Abraham told to sacrifice Isaac, but YHWH is only kidding.
Numbers 31: Moses commands the Israelites to slaughter the children of Midian & sacrifice 16 virgins to YHWH.
2 Kings 2: YHWH send bears to maul 42 kids who made fun of Elijiah.

you'd be thrown in jail for missing church on Sunday

The Sabbath is Saturday (well, technically Friday & Saturday, but I digress).

and there might not even be a death penalty.

Yes there would. And rape would be considered a "property crime."

And don't give me any of those "but that's the Old Testament" cop outs. It's still same deity.

Christopher D said...

I have seen crime as an act of desperation. If a woman steals meat to feed her children, is she evil, or is society evil for letting a child go hungry?
I have seen crimes done out of medical illness, a stand-off with an armed diabetic with severe blood sugar problems, Actually making him behave in a manner he normally never would. Is he evil?
A criminal act is not something that can be defined in black and white terms, it can not be blamed on a lack of faith, or socio-economic status.
Some people have strong faith in God, and are the worst humans on the planet, some haveno faith are the most trustworthy people.
Priests can be preditors, Pastors can be whoremongers, cops can be killers. The truth is, humans are ugly by nature, it is our intelligence that enables us to rise above our primal instincts. We just simply CHOOSE not to use that gift of rationalization between right and wrong.

William Lang said...

el bastard, you failed to mention the really creepy bit in the Bible concerning children: Judges chapter 11, where Jephthah sacrifices his only child, his daughter, to God. Jephthah made the rash vow to sacrifice anything or anyone who he first saw when he returned home from battle, if he were victorious. He was victorious, but unfortunately, the first living thing he saw when he returned home was his daughter. He did grant her two months to mourn her virginity with her friends, then (as the Scriptures put it), he "did to her as he vowed." Can you imagine the daughter, with her pink Hello Kitty backpack, crying and asking her father if he really really had to do it?

Oh, and by the way, the New Testament book Hebrews praises Jephthah as a man of great faith (chapter 11).

Iamhoosier said...

Why did I use brussels sprout as my answer? Surely I was being a smart ass again. Well, maybe a little.

After reading HB's "Absence of proof is not proof of absence", it was apparent to me that there could be no answer.

Look at a brussels sprout. It looks evil. It radiates evil. It permeates the entire world. I can feel it. You can too, if you will just open your mind. Evil.

Once, thinking that surely I was wrong, I decided to taste a brussels sprout. Much as Adam did with the apple.

Evil!!!

Prove me wrong.

Jeff Gillenwater said...

And for using the same reasoning as HB, you'll be branded as ridiculous by zealots who find his explanation perfectly palatable.

"My imaginary friend can be beat up your imaginary friend."

One thing's for sure: God needs better PR.

Daniel S said...

El Bastard-Do you really believe any of what you just wrote? Once again, you have to take the Bible as a whole. The official worship day for Christians was changed to Sunday after Jesus rose from the dead. Second, all the examples you give of killing children are about children already born. Third, have you ever heard of figurative language? Usually, when God is talking about killing children of a nation, he's talking about men, women and children, but of course that's easy to miss when you just breeze through a few verses to try and prove a point. Fourth, Christians are supposed to believe the whole Bible, including the New Testament when the old law(i.e. Jewish Law of the Old Testament) was replaced with what is now Christianity. Fifth, what about the NEw Testament verse where Jesus says it would be better for someone to have a millstone hung around their neck and drowned in a lake than to harm a young one?
Saying you were pushed to the limit is not an excuse for committing a crime, especially not in our country where there are homeless shelters and at least an appearance of welfare. The line, once again, is getting blury. Just because something is considered a crime, doesn't mean it's a sin, and thankfully likewise.

All4Word said...

HB, don't you want to retract your statement that not all sin is evil? Are you then saying that evil is a human construct? That kind of blows your whole argument.

Sin is a construct of believers. But a believer's God doesn't see gradations of rebellion and pride. It's all sin. Ipso facto, it's all evil.

Christopher D said...

Daniel S:
"Saying you were pushed to the limit is not an excuse for committing a crime, especially not in our country where there are homeless shelters and at least an appearance of welfare."
Being pushed to the limit is not an excuse?
There are situations where faith and judgement are over ruled with primal instincts of fight or flight.
I think I have to side with Hoosier on this one an agree that Brussel Sprouts are indeed the root cause!

Daniel S said...

Maybe in a few, a very very few, situations. Problem is people use excuses to do all sorts of wrong, including religous excuses.

The New Albanian said...

Well, the devil made me flip my rental property.

Highwayman said...

Good call Rog!

Daniel S said...

Sounds like a show on HGTV...

Christopher D said...

"Maybe in a few, a very very few, situations."
A good knowledge of theology is no replacement for a good understanding of criminology.
Each of us has our breaking point, and few of us know where that line is drawn.
The simple truth is there is not a innocent person aming us. We have ALL committed crimes, we have all sinned. We ALL will commit more crimes, and we all will commit more sins.
Its human nature, and nature will always be more powerful than nurture.

Daniel S said...

sounds like a defense attorney...

Anonymous said...

If you go back to the teachings of St. Augustine you will see he has a good explanation of this question “What is evil?”

The first question is whether evil is a “thing”.

But what if evil is not a "thing" in that sense? Then evil did not need creating. The search for the source of evil would then have to take us in another direction

Augustine approached this problem from a different angle. He asked: Do we have any convincing evidence that a good God exists? For Christians, this is easy and we believe there is independent evidence leading us to conclude that God exists and is good and therefore incapable of creating evil

With that in mind, something else must be its source.

And with this in mind, Christians can say that
1) All things that God created are good; 2) evil is not good; 3) therefore, evil was not created by God.

And then to follow up: 1) God created every thing; 2) God did not create evil; 3) therefore, evil is not a thing.

Augustine offered evidence through natural theology that God exists as a Creator and that He is good.

Therefore the premise is true and “evil is not a thing”

The critical question still remains: What is evil?

Augustine's idea of goodness (and, consequently, evil) was the notion of "being" and to Augustine, anything that had being was good.

With this foundation Augustine was now prepared to answer the key issue: "Where is evil and where did it originate?"

The word ontology deals with the nature of existence.

Coldness is the absence of heat.
When we remove heat energy from a system, we say it gets colder.
"Cold" isn't a thing.
It's a way of describing the reduction of molecular activity resulting in the sensation of heat.
So the more heat we pull out of a system, the colder it gets.
Cold itself isn't “being” created.
Cold is only a description of a circumstance in which heat is missing.
Heat is energy which can be measured
When you remove heat, the temperature goes down.
We call that condition “cold,” but there is no cold “stuff” that causes that condition.

What is darkness?
Darkness does not exist.
Darkness is really only the absence of light.
Darkness is only a term man developed to describe what happens when there is no light present.

Did you ever eat a donut hole?
Donut holes are actually what's left when the middle is cut out of a donut.
There's a space called a hole, a “nothing,” the condition that exists when something is taken away.

Same thing with a shadow.
Shadows don't exist as things in themselves; they're just the absence of light.
They don’t exist in and of themselves, but only after you remove light by placing an object in front of the light source

Evil is like that.

Evil has no ontological basis in and of itself, but the loss of goodness is what we believe to be evil

It is this diminution of the property of goodness that is called evil.

Augustine further observed that evil could not be chosen because there is no evil thing to choose. One can only turn away from the good.

To Augustine, Evil is the act itself of choosing the lesser good.

To Augustine the source of evil is in the free will of persons and it began with the turning away from God.

B.W. Smith said...

HB wrote:

The whole issue here is that Christians have an answer for evil. It comes from a supernatural realm.

So, the intellectual gymnastics of St. Augustine are what you had in mind when you wrote the above statement? I don't think so.

All4Word said...

I think that was a retraction by HB. He just said that all evil is sin, all sin is evil, a diminution of goodness.

B.W. Smith said...

You little Devil. Oh yeah - where'd the Devil go in all of this?

Iamhoosier said...

Perhaps it's a variation of, "OK, my facts are wrong but I'm still correct."

Anonymous said...

Evil is the intentional choice of choosing that which is not Godly (and God is of the supernatural realm)

All men sin, even those who continually strive to be Godly. But all men who sin are not evil.

This really shouldn’t be that difficult for you intellectuals to follow. Sorry I don't have more time today.

Iamhoosier said...

In your opinion. Since there is no proof...

I can cover my brussels sprouts with cheese sauce and guess what? They are still brussels sprouts.

I'm a little short on time, too. Gotta go look for some Oreo's. Where did you put them, Bluegill?

Jeff Gillenwater said...

Oreos? What Oreos?

I haven't seen Oreos since the tribe of space monkeys landed.

The New Albanian said...

I'm a pointyhead and I'm okay
I read all night and I sleep all day

I cut down cosmologies, I eat my lunch
I go to the lavat'ry
On Sundays I go biking
And have brussel's sprouts for tea

All4Word said...

Evil is the intentional choice of choosing that which is not Godly.

That's the classic definition of sin. Sin equals evil if evil is the opposite of good if good is the definition of God.

The argument, at its inception was that ALL CRIME is because of SIN, which touched off the main post and a slew of diversions into evangelism.

This really shouldn’t be that difficult for you anti-intellectuals to follow. Sorry I don't have more time today.

[snark alert]

How does that go? Something about knives and gunfights?

There always seems to be an assumption that regulars here are a monolithic hive mind (The Borg?) and that believers aren't welcome. I can quickly think of several regulars who are more than capable of recognizing fundamentalist arguments, sophisticated or otherwise, and capably discussing them from a biblical and church perspective.

The difference being, some of us don't believe that church and state are the same thing.

I said something to my bride the other day about being a Christian (although I do now pronounce it as Christ[long i] -ian to avoid confusion), when she told me "No. We're not. We went to sleep one night and the next day discovered they'd taken that away from us."

HB, did you ever wonder where my screen name came from? Think about it. It's not a tribute to books and writing.

El Bastardo said...

daniel s:
The official worship day for Christians was changed to Sunday after Jesus rose from the dead.

Not in the Bible, it wasn't. Please quote the chapter and verse where this was decreed.

Second, all the examples you give of killing children are about children already born.

So you admit that these kids deserved to die?

Third, have you ever heard of figurative language? Usually, when God is talking about killing children of a nation, he's talking about men, women and children, but of course that's easy to miss when you just breeze through a few verses to try and prove a point.

It's obvious you didn't read the chapters I mentioned. Here's a sample from Numbers 31:17 (KJV): Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

Fourth, Christians are supposed to believe the whole Bible, including the New Testament when the old law(i.e. Jewish Law of the Old Testament) was replaced with what is now Christianity.

An interpretation, but even if it were true, that doesn't make the YHWH-sanctioned genocide, murder, & rape of the OT magically disappear.

Fifth, what about the NEw Testament verse where Jesus says it would be better for someone to have a millstone hung around their neck and drowned in a lake than to harm a young one?

It certainly contradicts some of the events & commandments of the OT, then.

Daniel S said...

El bastardo-"It's obvious you didn't read the chapters I mentioned. Here's a sample from Numbers 31:17 (KJV): Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him."
Yep, ya got me. God's can be pretty bad when he wants to be, doesn't that scare you a little? Of course I would try to explain the context of this to you but you'd just find some half a verse about something else to try and prove a point that's really just another excuse...Plus, if you want the best example, you should have used when He killed all the firstborn of Egypt. But, He says time and time again judgement is His. It's His world. But you don't want to believe so you won't, I can't make you, but that's cool, your life.
As for the Saturday/Sunday debate, why is the Sabbath Day the only commandment not repeated in the New Testament? Why did Jesus choose Sunday as the day to rise from the dead? Why, immediately after His resurection, did Christians start worshipping on Sunday?
I just find these arguments amusing for several reasons. People say they won't believe in God because they can't see Him, but they'll believe we evolved from apes or some crap like that which is funny, because science changes every day. Science experts used to think the world was flat, that monsters lived in the ocean and ate people, it goes on and on. Except when changed by humans to fit agendas, the Bible hasn't changed in over 2,000 years...People would rather believe anything else sometimes because the truth is, they are scared and can't explain stuff, so they just don't believe...which, back to the heart of the argument, is thankfully permitted in America. Because I generally like people and I don't think they should suffer for their religious choices in America. Whew...I feel better now.

The New Albanian said...

Except when changed by humans to fit agendas, the Bible hasn't changed in over 2,000 years.

Talk about the tip-off comment to a truly extended discussion!

Roger says: Perhaps. It's just as contradictory now as it was then.

William Lang said...

daniel s, yes, science does change. It makes mistakes. But science corrects itself. It makes progress.

The Bible, on the other hand, includes a lot of myth and legend, and ancient propaganda, that can never be corrected because the Bible isn't supposed to change. Here's one example: The Virgin Birth of Jesus. It's only mentioned in Matthew and Luke, who tell two different stories about the Virgin Birth that don't seem to have much to do with each other. (Matthew tells of Magi, the flight to Egypt and the slaughter of the innocents; but Luke talks about the world being taxed and a manger in Bethlehem, shepherds and angels.) It seems that there were different Virgin Birth legends that started to circulate a few decades after Jesus died. But here's the proof that these are legends: The Apostle Paul never mentions the Virgin Birth in any of his 12 letters. He wrote in the 50s but Luke and Matthew were written after 70. You would think that Paul, who comments in detail about other theological matters, would have something to say about the Virgin Birth. But apparently, he never heard of it. The only cogent explanation is that the Virgin Birth stories came after his time.

G Coyle said...

Daniel s: "People would rather believe anything else sometimes because the truth is, they are scared and can't explain stuff, so they just don't believe..."

I would just take out the last "don't" in that sentence daniel and you have stated what I believe causes some of this literal-bible-truth crap people are so obscenely wrapped up with here to take hold. Fear. Fear of change, fear of the end of patriarchy, fear of science, fear of everything it seems sometimes.

My only comment to healthblogger, who's augments are so logically twisted it makes my mind bend reading his posts - I recall your love of hunting. In my faith, I believe it is "evil" to kill God's creatures for fun.

Christopher D said...

This by no means will be a popular post, and I am sure I will burn in opinion hell for it.
You cite the bible quite accurately, and with great zeal. And I honestly mean this: Good for you and your strong faith and knowledge of the Holy Bible.
But lets not forget, the ideologies contained in the bible are from God, the words are from men. Written, for the most part, long after the death of Christ. At least 45 to 140 years after his death is when most of the New testament written, then it had to be translated, and compiled from the MANY books that were brought together over the course of centuries to become what we have now, the 27 book canon.
Men embellish things, to suit the needs of said men at the time it was written. And the socio-political state of the old world at the times when this was done had to of had a major influence on those who were "translating".
It could be argued that for nearly every passage in the Holy Bible that one could find to condemn an action, there is another passage that one could say condones the same actions, especially in the hands of those who would use Gods wisdom to further their own political agendas.
Which is why there are so many people in this country who feel disconnected from the Church and organized religion all together.
The judgemental hypocrisy shown by so many of the megachurches that are taking over (I like to refer to one or two of the as six flags over Jesus), with their stadium sized "chapels" jam packed with state of the art technology, massive big screen tvs, all of the trimmings.
Look at these churches as the "rich men" of the religious community, and remember something about a camel and the eye of a needle, or a poor man laid at the gate.
The wisdom and love from God (who ever that may be to you), should be simple and pure, unmeretricious, and above all else, it should NEVER be used to argue with those whose faith and interpretation of the bible differs from yours. As long as a person has faith, that is all that matters, not the depth of how well they memorize each and every passage of a book, its all about how well a person knows God on a spiritual level.
Keep in mind, when a "christian" sits in judgement of another person, and uses the bible as their gavel, that person must lay that bible down to tie a noose.

Daniel S said...

I'd like to agree with you Chris, but that's just not what the Bible states. True, there are some passages that are hard to decipher, but the Bible speaks plainly about some subjects that people choose to ignore. As far as the other posts, you have to remember, the central theme of the Bible is faith. If you don't have faith, then you won't believe. You've never seen $1 million dollars in cash, but you have faith its still there. As for the virgin birth thing, I believe it to be true, but if its not, doesn't really change much of anything. Just like the big bang theory, people I was raised with said there's no way that happened, God created the earth. I say maybe He used a Big bang. Same with aliens or other planets, what difference does it really make? Doesn't have much to do with the purpose of the Bible. Of course in today's society, when you see people like McCain running for office lol...it's easy to lose faith.

El Bastardo said...

daniel s:
God's can be pretty bad when he wants to be, doesn't that scare you a little?

So YHWH is worthy of worship simly for the fact that he is more powerful than you?


As for the Saturday/Sunday debate, why is the Sabbath Day the only commandment not repeated in the New Testament?

Show me where the other nine are repeated, please. I remember Jesus telling others to "keep the commandments," but nothing about changing the Sabbath to Sunday.

Why did Jesus choose Sunday as the day to rise from the dead?

Maybe because raising the dead is considered "work," and YHWH wanted to rest on the Sabbath.

Why, immediately after His resurection, did Christians start worshipping on Sunday?

Christianity was still considered a Jewish sect around 30 CE, so it's highly unlikely this happened "immediately." If you have any documentation to prove otherwise, please supply it. Otherwise you're just talking out of your ass.

I just find these arguments amusing for several reasons. People say they won't believe in God because they can't see Him, but they'll believe we evolved from apes or some crap like that. . . .

Evolution states that man did not evolve from apes, but we had a common ancestor. That aside, what is the difference between the Biblical creation story and those of other religions. At least with science we have fossils and various forms of rock to determine how the earth & life were formed. The Genesis story is no more valid that saying the world was created from the remains of a slain frost giant.

Except when changed by humans to fit agendas, the Bible hasn't changed in over 2,000 years...

This comment again illustrates your lack of familiarity with your own religion. The New Testament is at best 1600 years old, but that doesn't account for translations, or even the various versions in use at the time. Wikipedia can expound on this, if you're so inclined: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_New_Testament_canon

Christopher D said...

"I just find these arguments amusing for several reasons. People say they won't believe in God because they can't see Him, but they'll believe we evolved from apes or some crap like that. . . ."
Of base but at least there is tangible proof of evolution in the forms of fossils which illustrates the evolution from Ardipithecus ramidus through the Australopithecines (A.africanus, A. robustus, A. boisei, etc) into the branchs of Homo's: habilis,H. georgicus, H.erectus,H antecessor,
H. sapiens neanderthalensis, H.floresiensis, and finally arriving at modern humans in the form of Homo sapiens sapiens, appearing about 195,000 years ago.
There are still "races" of humans who show simularities to more archaic Sapien Species, aboriginal Australians for instance still have teeth that are more like the teeth found in fossils of Mesolithic humans.
Differences can still be found today in modern humans, and we are continuing to change.
I strongly believe in evolution, but I also spiritually believe that the "driving force" behind evolution is God, and the early authors of the good books could not figure out where or why we became, so the best answer of the day was we were simply not here one day, and the next PLOP here comes Adam...