There was a debate last evening between running mates. You may have heard about it. If you're like me, you wonder why there was any fuss at all, given that the choice between presidential candidates is so incredibly clear that John McCain's selection of the least qualified underling in my lifetime (perhaps in the lifetime of the world's oldest human being) is merely icing on the forthcoming Barack Obama win.
You can comment in the usual manner, but here's something of the post-debate discussion at the site that I found familiar to my own reaction. After all, as noted earlier this year, I'm a European: Out and about: At long last, a staggering admission.
London: Mr. (Robert) Kaiser, I stayed up way past my bedtime to listen to this debate, and what I heard was not reassuring. I'm sure you know that Europe is appalled at the choice of Gov. Palin as Sen. McCain's running mate, and nothing she said tonight is going to change this view. I'm sure she's a lovely person who would make a lovely neighbor, but she's simply not qualified to be president. We still are having major problems with your re-election of the current president, but this would make things substantially worse.
Yep. Bush/Cheney has been an unmitigated 8-year-long disaster, and McCain/Palin differs barely a jot from the current occupancy (to paraphrase Garrison Keillor), and no senseless babble about soccer moms and mavericks stands to change the verdict of history. All the Republican candidates have is smoke and mirrors to distract attention from a dismal record that rivals that of the 1962 New York Mets.
Next.
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42 comments:
"I'm sure you know that Europe is appalled at the choice of Gov. Palin as Sen. McCain's running mate,"
Roger, please tell Europe that this is an election for an American president and not for the EU. I have heard it said that Obama could win an election to be the leader of Germany, but Germans don't get a vote in November. I feel confident that the soul of this nation, the heartland, the real America will elect McCain. The fact that some in Europe may not like that choice reaffirms to me that Senator McCain is the only one for the job.
That's a variation of the old axiom that has the hick walking into the best seafood restaurant and insisting on a hamburger.
The remainder of the planet probably would vote against McCain/Palin by a 70-30 margin, and you derive from this a bizarre satisfaction that we'd be doing the right thing by selecting them, presumably from the same contrarianism of the hamburger analogy above, and also probably because of the unsupportable belief that some form of supernatural being agrees with your contrarianism.
Maybe that's actually the problem, not the solution.
Well, I'm appalled and I am eligible to vote this November.
I still consider myself a real American. I must have missed your appointment as the final arbiter of "real" Americans. Congrats.
By the way, where was McCain's lapel flag the other night?
I have not appointed myself anything. I see America as the hope of the world, which means it is not like the rest of it. The ideal of freedom and pursuit of happiness is what Americans thrive on. The rest of the world has never tasted what it is truly like to live this way. Sadly, I feel we are moving more towards the rest of the world's ways instead of them moving towards us. Socialism is a cancer that is spreading...it smothers ingenuity and praises mediocrity. Maybe one day the world will live as one. One big average field of sheep.
I'm in favor of new pilgrims.
To say, for whatever reason, "I prefer John McCain" is one thing, daniel short. To declare your confidence that Americans will elect him is quite another. I'm bookmarking this page so that on Nov. 5 I can marvel at your prediction powers.
Sadly, I feel we are moving more "towards the rest of the world's ways instead of them moving towards us."
Well, I judge by the response that you're not trying to refute my point, and that's satisfactory to me.
God wills it? 2,000 years, and still no effort at a better argument.
Roger, I believe the American people will "will it." You always try to pull theology into these discussions. Tsk tsk....Do I think God willed Jimmy Carter to be POTUS? Uh, well maybe...it did set up a landslide in 1980 and a conservative revolution that lives on. So maybe the Big Guy will show favor to Barry. Who knows? But one thing is for sure, if I went into the seafood restaurant, I would order the Alaskan King Crab.
Ah, the debate last night.
Sarah Palin provided us with a charming recitation of cliches. Imagine going for a job interview and telling the interviewer that you are not going to be answer the questions that the interviewer wants to ask, but you'll answer what you want to. Please.
But I did agree with one point she made. She made a clear argument that we need to move away from the politicians of the past and recognize that there is new blood and new hope. She gave the most compelling argument to elect Barack Obama I've heard in a while.
I like to think that we, as a nation, have developed the acumen to move beyond cliches and labels and begin to allow complex issues to be dealt with in complex ways.
Oh, sigh, being a life long Mets fan. As a child I even sat in the Polo Grounds a few times in their first couple of years in existence. They lost. Except one game.
I just hope that the Democrats don't aspire to being the 2007 or 2008 Mets...
Nicely said John M. You correctly point to the evolving complexity and interrelatedness of our modern world. Conservatives here in the "Heartland" seem to stand for going back to a simple per-industrial time. That seems so delusional to me, unless you are fully committed to living under the Taliban, or maybe you want to be Amish. Maybe it's that denial of evolution thing? If you "have faith" the world will never change, it won't.
And I'm still waiting to hear from McCain or Palin - who profess they are Mavericks and change agents, what is so different about their platform than Bush's. When Palin said we have to clean up the corruption and greed on Wall St and Main St, I agreed. I just don't agree her platform is based on change as much as Obama's is, if at all.
Mr. Manzo, one might think that the McCain/Palin stance on life would be enough for a man of the cloth to endorse it. Exactly what is your voting issue? What is that one thing that can make or break it for you?
I understand the "interrelatedness" of our modern world. I also understand that it is far better to deal with governments that were elected by the free people who live there instead of dictators that abuse the people who live there and threaten the rest of the world.
My voting issues?
The war in Iraq, by any classical definition of a 'just war,' is not and has never been one. It is grossly immoral.
The Republican ticket is hardly pro-life. They are simply anti-abortion. They do not have a serious pro-life position. Anyone who approves capital punishment is not pro-life. People like to delude themselves that they are, but when they do this they are putting a political belief ahead of an ethical principle.
My main reason for choosing who I choose comes very much from the Bible, most especially the Gospels. The Gospels have two strong, potent ethical issues. Caring for the poor and embracing ALL people. I'm making my choice based on who I think will attempt to meet those challenges.
... One might think that the McCain/Palin stance on life would be enough for a man of the cloth to endorse it.
Whoa -- there's the rub.
The stances on life taken by various men of the cloth over the centuries is probably the best reason to maintain a secular state seperate from religion.
The clergy during the Inquisition? Father Tiso? Ian Paisley? Ordained ministers in the service of the Confederacy and slavery? The list goes on and on, and yes, I know that we've debated the relative numbers of humans enslaved and murdered by religious vs. secular "isms", the fact remains that such a bblithe appeal to a "man of the cloth" without qualification in history is a fallacy.
Thought you'd say it, though.
By your argument, Mr. Manzo, you don't consider unborn children in the group of "all people." I understand your stance completely.
Roger, I know well the murders and injustices that have occurred in the name of God. I am no apologist for those. We can only work from this point on, and life is the number one right in humanity. I don't believe in a religious government. The right to life is not a religious concept. It is a basic human concept.
I would gladly trade life sentences for the scum murderers in our prisons for the chance for life for our unborn.
"I would gladly trade life sentences for the scum murderers in our prisons for the chance for life for our unborn."
Why are the "unborn" always more important to you D. Short than the born and living?
Both are equally important in my book, but it seems to me that the unborn need a voice. I choose to speak for the Innocent that cannot speak for themselves.
I also do my part for the born and living, having been to the Kentucky State Reformatory many times with Prison Ministries.
While Palin is easier on the eyes than Biden, that noise that came out her mouth might as well be, "whaa waah whaaaa wahh."
as for everyone moving towards us rather than we move towards them...have you ever been to Europe Dan? the place is amazing! family is still valued there! they don't have this stupid "no child left behind" crap for their schools. most europeans speak 2 or 3 languages. most europeans aren't overweight or obese like 66% of the adult U.S. population. yeah, they pay 6-10 $ per liter of gas, but they can walk anywhere they want, or hope a bus, or train. just because something is not American doesn't make it bad, or lame or whatever.
on the topic of pro life, dude, we need to get our stuff together first before we worry about the unborn. hell, they're being born into a really bad deal if you ask me..
Tommy, I have never been to Europe. I love what you are saying about learning new languages and being fit and riding trains...my problem with it is a government telling me how to live my wonderful life. Mass transit works in very few areas. The other areas are subsidized (read as taxpayers foot the bill). Tarc doesn't even pay for itself around here. If TARC charged what it needed to stay afloat, no one would ride. I love the freedom of choosing to ride the bus or drive or walk. I love the freedom of living where I choose because I feel that is what is best for me and not because I can't afford to love more than 2 miles from my job.
And Tommy, you really don't believe we should abort babies just because they would be born into a world you say is "a really bad deal" do you? Come on, man, you have two daughters.
Roger, one thing is for sure. When the lone conservative weighs in on NAC, the comments come in quick.
To those who feel that the McCain/Palin ticket represent the best of America I say, well I won't say what I would say.
The McCain/Palin/Bush/Cheney/Rove/Atwater/Reagan/Bush/Nixon/Agnew/Haldeman/Erlichman/Segretti ticket offers change? Give me a ______ing break. This current crew hopes to reap the harvest sown by the above mentioned lesser lights of our history. We face an economic meltdown brought about by a near-religious aversion to government regulation of capitalism. The Gipper himself famously said,"guvment isn't the solution to our problems, guvment IS the problem." (it meant something to him, I guess)
The Reagan mantle is up for grabs and so,today, we have a lightweight governor of a state with a six-figure population, attempting to get near the levers of power by exploiting her credentials as a lightweight governor of a state with a six-figure population and an aversion to correct pronunciaion of the suffix "ing"--hint it should rhyme with ring. This is a case of style over substance. It is a case of distraction. It is a case of change defined by body parts versus policy. It is a case of us versus them and a truly skewed view of "us" or "them".
Obama promises change. McCain votes with the Worst President in the History of the Republic over 90%, NINETY PER CENT,of the time and claims he is a maverick from the dessicated philosophy of Republican/Corporatism. Does he expect that the public will ignore the small price he placed on his soul as he sold it to become a Bush toady? What deal was struck between The Maverick and W to assuage the hurt McCain must have felt when Bush/Rove tried to cut him down in South Carolina with the (higher exchange rate on insults to honor below the Mason Dixon Line) damning charge that McCain had fathered a black child? We can only guess, but witness who sits atop the heap of Republicanism today for a possible answer.
Obama offers a generational shift in our political roster--unfortunately for me, I'm on the wrong side of the generational divide, but I wish good luck to those who ply the road ahead. He offers a way out of Iraq, while in the early stages of the debacle, he offered caution, a caution which could have prevented the loss of so many lives as well as our national reputation. Obama offers a fresh outlook toward the building of a 21st Century economy based on green technology. Obama offers sound economic policies and the prospect for universal health coverage for all Americans.
So, who is the most likely agent of change? Well, it's got to be the hockey mom, moose-slaughterin, suffix-droppin, titanium-eyeglass-wearin Governor of the state of
Alaska.
If style beats subtance this time, it truly is time for prayer.
after our children arrived, i would never consider the option of abortion. what i really wanted to get across is that we (americans and the world) need to get our act together. as a society, i think we pretty much suck.
i'd be happy to get taxed in order to provide our education system with some $$$, so our kids can actually look at a map and find out where they live!
i'm not replying because you're conservative. it's just that i've lived there. i've seen it with my own eyes how a country can go on a month vacation and it's not a big deal!
what in government is telling you how to live your life btw?
Indeed they do.
But you're forgetting that while there's no doubt that Europe subsidizes planning when it comes to the "freedom of living", it's fairly far ahead of us when it comes to recognizing the high cost of low price.
In short, we subsidize sprawl. We've had this discussion previously, eh?
Gee, where's Healthblogger when Daniel needs an ally?
Tommy, the problem with the education system isn't that there isn't enough money. We throw more money at it all the time. No child left behind has failed and needs to be scrapped. I believe teachers need to be paid more, but only if they do their job. They must prove they know what they are teaching by being certified periodically and then be paid for best in class performance. No industry pays employees that don't do their job, they fire them. We can't fire teachers in America. We pay some to sit in a room and play video games all day because they are tenured and still incompetent to teach.
Mr. Gonder, President Bush doesn't vote, first of all and Barack is the most liberal Senator in the chamber behind Kennedy. Some change that will be. You also forgot Goldwater and Limbaugh in your lineup.
Roger, we have had this discussion before. It is one of those agree to disagree moments. I just don't like paying for services that I don't use.
I just don't like paying for services that I don't use.
But, as previously pointed out, you have no problem expecting everyone else to.
When it's what you want, taxes should be paid and the government should intervene. When it's what someone else wants, taxes and government are an evil to be squelched.
As also previously mentioned, it's not conservatism that gets you into trouble around here.
Daniel,
You say that "both are equally important in my book" but you have stated on the blogs that you struggle with being against capital punishment.
I am not against your "struggle" statement(I admire the honesty)but apparently the two are not "equally" important. You are very definite about abortion but not so much with capital punishment.
By the way, a very close friend and co-worker for almost 30 years, is very involved in Prison Ministries in Kentucky. We disagree passionately on politics but he is like a brother to me.
Jeff, please refresh my memory on where I want others to pay for services they don't use.
I struggle with the death penalty because I believe all life has value. Then again, individuals know the consequences for their actions and choose to do them anyway.
Reading this blog is what gets me in trouble. I simply can't help myself at times and must add my two cents. It does spice it up for a while, don't you agree Jeff?
Hoosier, I am so glad that your friend is involved. These inmates are the forgotten ones in our society. Most are repeat offenders and multi-generational prison inmates.
Daniel, There are, like 3 million cases of child abuse reported in this country a year. Indiana has had one of the highest rates of child abuse. If you seriously want anyone to believe "but it seems to me that the unborn need a voice." would you kindly consider the already born who could use a voice? I find it straight up immoral for people to claim the mantel of pro-life while they care little about the suffering children right in there face.
Oh, and Daniel, the prison population you see - fact is, most are there as a result of early childhood abuse.
Daniel,
I'm sure that Jeff will be much more eloquent than me but let me give a few examples.
1. I have no children, why do I have to pay for schools?
2. I may never drive on the road in front of your home or the road to your church.
3. Why are churches exempt from taxes? I certainly have not been using them. With the exemptions, I am certainly paying more in taxes.
Mark
Mark,
All valid points. Here is my response. Education lifts us higher than we used to be, therefore it benefits ALL of society. But, then again, I would be glad to give you your tax money back that goes to education, as well as to all parents, because private schools teach better for less. Did you know that in Washington D.C., approximately $14K is spent on each child in public schools. It is one of the worst in the country. In the same city, a very good private school will only cost about $7K. I would take that trade anyday.
You may never drive on my road, but much commerce takes place on all roads, again, benefitting all. You wouldn't want to close off part of our economic thoroughfare.
Now the great church debate. Churches are tax exempt like all other non-profit organizations. Do you want to compare them to the United Way, which receives some of your tax money? The United Way had a national director that stole hundreds of thousands of dollars from the organization, and got a fat severence when she was fired. Bad apples everywhere.
"I believe teachers need to be paid more, but only if they do their job."
i have a bs in physical education. the way u of l has our program set up, i would first have to earn a masters before i even stepped foot into a classroom. starting pay is about $32,000 for pe teachers.
i'm working on an aa in physical therapist assistant and the average starting pay is $43,000.
now..how wack is it that i can go earn $11,000 more dollars with an aa than i could with a masters?!
like others are saying, Obama is the real change. remember in '72 when people could have voted for real change? this is like going back in time and getting a second chance at voting the right guy in, instead of the same ol' stuff for another 4 years.
Daniel,
You didn't need to explain them to me. I don't disagree with paying taxes for those examples for the reasons that you stated and others. But it still doesn't change the fact that I'm not using them. You made the statement, not I.
You get some of the same direct and indirect benefits from mass transit and many of the other things that you don't use but have to help pay for.
Like Jeff wrote, it's not the conservatism that gets you in trouble...
Surely there wasn't a reference to roads and highways. Those things aren't financially self-supporting.
Who would ever build a transportation system that's dependent on tax subsidy?
Oh, and when I used education as one of my examples, I figured that the door was open for your private school message.
As you so readily point out, there are bad apples in every bunch. Just one point the backers of private education never seem to remember when comparing to public schools, the private schools are under NO obligation to teach ALL the children. Smart ones, not-so-smart ones, mentally handicapped, bully, gay, good home life, bad home life, never had a parent or anyone ever read to them, etc.
I think that makes it a little easier on the private schools to show such good results, don't you? On the whole?
This is bizarre. ALL doesn't mean all? I love it when people presume to know what I think or believe.
...I'm late viewing this, but Mr. Short do yourself a big favor, go to Europe for 10 days and then report back on what you learned. Then, you may have an opinion on the EU and how people live and why.
For your statement, it would be like you and I saying we know what it is like giving birth to a child.
Peace
Okay, Mr. Short, first I have to say that all democrats are not pro-abortion and not all republicans are pro-life. It just isn't true, but it's what works for the political agenda of the right wing republican party. I am a proud democrat and I have been pro-life for over 20 years.Do some of my fellow democrats disagree with my pro-life beliefs? Of course, but so do some of your fellow republicans. So I would really appreciate it if your party would stop acting as if they have a corner on that market.
Second, if you agree with capital punishment, but disagree with abortion you are not pro-life; you are anti-abortion. There is a fundimental difference. I don't care what anyone says, George W. Bush is not pro-life. Any person who holds the record of putting the most prisoners to death while govenor is not pro-life and it angers me that the christian right republicans put that man on a pro-life pedestal. I have read the bible several times, Mr. Short, and there are no i.e.'s after "Thou Shalt not Kill".
Furthermore, I am sick and tired of the republican party thinking that they are somehow better christians then democrats. Why is that? Could it be because of the democrats diversity and acceptance of all people? Again, I don't remember any i.e.'s after Jesus' command for us to love one another.
Also, I don't appreciate your insinuation that I am not part of "Real America" because I will not be voting for McCain, and by the way, my choice has nothing to do with the European opinion of Gov. Palin.
So, in closing, Mr. Short, it may be hard for you believe but it is possible for an individual to be pro-life, christian, patriotic and Democratic.
The really funny part is that right wingers still believe that the Republicans are going to deliver on their abortion stances.
If I'm not mistaken, we're finishing up eight years of a Republican president, six with Republican control of Congress. Abortion is still quite legal and thousands of others are still quite senselessly dead.
Pro life? At some point, you have to give up the charade.
i think the democrat party got it wrong, it should be Biden at the top of the ticket with Clinton as the VP, now thats a ticket I would support, oh well its a write in for nader
When a person tells me that he/she is pro-life, my first question is about capital punishment. If they are not opposed to capital punishment, they are not pro-life and I simply will not take them seriously as they are not taking life issues very seriously.
From my own observations of so-called christian fundamentalists, pro-life is code (or a delusion) which really means - we will do anything to remain OVER women. There is absolutely nothing more terrifying to many men than the end of patriarchy. Their power derives from being OVER others and now that colonialism is dead, and blacks are "free", women and children are what's left. Being white and having a penis has been a great deal and you've had a good long run, but just like the greed on Wall St, the game is ending.
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