In yesterday’s Tribune, Clarksville’s ongoing passion play entitled Theatair X verus R.O.C.K received yet another airing.
Theatair X attorney says ordinance unconstitutional in Clarksville
One quote in particular got my personal goat.
ROCK’s President Brian Wickens reportedly said in a November press conference that a former FBI agent had been present inside the facility and witnessed illegal activities in progress.
The attorney for Theatair X pointed out there have never been any arrests made at the establishment and if ROCK’s phantom former FBI agent exists, he has never been identified by that organization nor has he ever reported such to the Clarksville Police.
What follows is the statement that riles me. Ms. Gramig, who is ROCK’s Research & Policy Coordinator offered that she is unaware of any ROCK officials making any contact with law enforcement.
“It’s not ROCK’s job to make sure the police does its job.” Says Gramig.
So if it isn’t the watchdog’s job to sound the alarm when the wolves approach the sheep pen, whose is it??
This is precisely the sort of hypocritical hogwash that has led many of us to wash our hands of the religions of our parents!
They speak of a civic moral responsibility for us to practice yet refuse to get their hands dirty to back it up.
This same logic follows if one were to witness a robbery/rape/murder in broad daylight it would be acceptable to express outrage that it happened while refraining to report the identity of the perpetrator.
And these are the folks that have the concern for my eternal destiny in their hearts??
Give me a break! No wait-----give me a double Scotch neat!!!
Just as a very friendly aside, it is important not to brush all religious people with the same stroke. Many religious people do many things quietly and behind the scenes, and seek no publicity for it.
ReplyDeleteJesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a fraction of a penny.
ReplyDeleteCalling his disciples to him, Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on."
Mark 12: 41-44 (NIV)
I'm guessing the widow didn't make a show of her gift, either.
Mr. Baylor,
ReplyDeleteAre you pro-theatre X and pornography in our communities or just radically anti-christian.
As an undercover officer, it would be very unusual to reveal the identity until the investigation is complete and the identity may still be kept secret.
The ROCK speaker may not know all the details of who met with who and certainly there is no hypocrisy if she is unaware of all the meetings.
My apologies Mr. Baylor, I see it was the highwayman who posted today.
ReplyDeleteThe same question though would apply.
Perhaps Mr. Wickens was mistaken or lying. Like when he said, repeatedly, that he was a citizen of New Albany.
ReplyDeleteHighwayman can defend himself, but how is anything he wrote A. pro pornography or B. anti-Christian?
ReplyDeleteThe way I read it, he is arguing that ROCK is hypocritical, and Mr. Manzo applies a valid caveat.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteCasualobserver
ReplyDelete"As an undercover officer, it would be very unusual to reveal the identity until the investigation is complete and the identity may still be kept secret."
The "person" acting on behalf of rock is reportedly a FORMER FBI agent, and NOT an undercover officer with the powers to enforce laws.
There is a SIGNIFICANT difference between a person with a law enforcement history working as a spy for a one track organization, vs a sworn peace officer performing the duties afforded to him under the constitution and his commission as a law enforcement agent.
I have a history of law enforcement myself, so does that mean I can infiltrate ROCK, find even the slightest of violations and demand that they be shut down?
If an organization expects to be taken seriously by the community it must practice full disclosure, including its sources. Just PLEASE do not patronize us by listing this person as an undercover officer.
If the address posted by casualobsever is correct, Mr. Wickens is not a New Albany resident.
ReplyDeleteIf he's not a New Albany resident, saying so is neither hypocritical nor an attack.
John, to my knowledge, has never represented himself as a New Albany resident for the purpose of influencing elected city leaders.
Beat me to the punch, Bluegill. He has a New Albany postal address, but he does not live in the City of New Albany (although we would love to annex his property and make him a resident).
ReplyDeleteMr. Casual,
ReplyDeleteAs Bluegill has already said, if that address is correct, Mr. Wickens is NOT a citizen of New Albany.
Perhaps you ought to ask yourself why an educated man, such as Mr. Wickens, would lie about his residency. Mistake? Maybe, but an attorney(at least good ones)make their living by being precise. Mr. Wickens is paid $100,000 to head up ROCK. I would hope for that much money, he would at least know where he lives.
BREAKING NEWS....
ReplyDeleteROCK will be soon attacking the retail pharmacy chain Walgreens, as on their website right next to the photography tab is a tab for "S*xual Health"
As we all know walgreens openly and freely sells childrens vitamins, and by having a "s*xual health" section, they are trying to lure children into the vile underworld of persons who are afraid to be S*xual beings!
They sell phallically shaped "personal massagers" too. So I have heard.
ReplyDeleteWith a New Albany postal address and zip code, what do you think Mr. Wickens should say about his location?
ReplyDeleteWhen any legal form asks for city of residence and any of these individuals who live in the "fringe" areas put New Albany, are they lying on the form?
Your argument demonstrates the shallowness of your argument as well as your hypocrisy.
Just state the fact that because ROCK openly states they want to stand up for family Christian values, you are opposed to them.
I pay city taxes. Mr. Wickens does not. I vote in New Albany city elections. Mr. Wikcens does not.
ReplyDeleteWhen it comes to representative government, those factors make a difference far beyond which post office delivers one's mail.
And, according to many Christian families I know, ROCK doesn't represent family Christian values.
Mr. Casual,
ReplyDeleteMr. Wickens stood up in front of the New Albany City Council and stated that he was a citizen of New Albany. At least twice. It was not some casual convesation. Mr. Wickens is not entitled to vote in New Albany elections and he does not pay city taxes(at least on his residence). But why should we let facts get in the way.
And for the record, in general, I support the city council's recent actions on "cabarets".
Just state the fact that because ROCK openly states they want to stand up for family Christian values, you are opposed to them.
ReplyDeleteEr ... I thought ROCK was "standing up" for children and families. Must you be Christian to do that? And, if so, why does the organization get non-profit status?
I'm happy you made this observation (obsevation?). Perhaps I'll read it aloud at tonight's CC meeting.
John M,
ReplyDeleteAs you and I had the pleasure of sharing lunch soon after your comment went up, I feel certain you understand this shot was fired across the bow of a specific segment of the religious community.
And as for you Casualobserver you may be suprised to know that I'm neither pro or con to the extreme of either side of this fence.
What I am is embarrassed and angered by an outdated mindset that is selfserving and self aggrandizing on a very limited scope.
If the evangelical zealots were really concerned about societies woes as they profess, they would be as up in arms about the homeless, the hungry, the sqaulid living conditions, and the lack of affordable health care as they are about how one chooses to view the naked human body.
But to do that would mean the sacrifice of their copper clad edifices and all the eminities that go with them. It would mean they'd have to get their hands dirty.
No sad as it is, these paid lobbyists come from the same gene pool who 300 years ago found nothing whatsoever wrong with enslaving one ethnic group while trying to wipe another off the face of this continent.
And all the while telling themselves & the world as well that they were trying to slavage the souls of the oppressed.
That my friend is hypocrisy pure & simple!
I should not try to type as fast as I think!
ReplyDeleteThat would be "salvage" not slavage!
Just as an aside, I am very cautious how I present myself.
ReplyDeleteI feel a right and obligation to speak out as a downtown pastor in New Albany as I serve a church in the heart of the downtown. I do speak out on social justice issues that impact the downtown. The values I speak out on are generally values that come to me by way of faith. I believe that the Gospels teach us that the greatest social ills of our society are the oppression of people and poverty. As a result, I often speak out on human rights and poverty.
While I have said that the porn shop, massage parlor, and strip club in New Albany are a blight to the city, I would prefer that financial resources be used to fight poverty rather than the sex industry. From the perspective of my faith, I believe this is would God would want us to do. I see the efforts to fight the sex industry to be too expensive a project when there are so many bigger issues in which to deal. While I do not disagree with ROCK about the 'badness' of these places, I disagree with them about the priority of fighting them when we have graver issues. We disagree on the battles our faith leads us to fight.
To say that, at least for me, that I disagree with ROCK because I oppose 'family Christian values,' would be very untrue. Most people who know my family would find it difficult to believe that our household does not have the values of Christians.
Going back to Highwayman's statement, he is making a very simple observation that if one sees illegal activity, one has a legal and perhaps moral obligation to report it. On that note, I would totally agree with him. I gave him a friendly reminder that not all of us are like this. Some of us actually do what we believe is right, we just do it quietly. If I made statements about addressing poverty and St. Marks did nothing to address poverty in the community, I should be called out on that as well. As we do our fair share, I feel at ease in speaking out.
I say all of this as a downtown pastor who spends the vast amount of my days in the downtown. I work here, interact with people downtown, and frequent businesses downtown. I am very much a part of downtown life.
I cannot, however, represent myself as a representative of the City of New Albany. I never have and I cannot because I am not. If my subdivision is annexed someday, I will be, but at this point in time I have no vote for the mayor and city council and cannot speak as one of their constituents.
Lastly, and most importantly, please remove the White Pages link to my address. While it is readily available online as is so aptly pointed out, my address or a link to my address should not be posted on a website without my approval.
If the author of that post does not remove this, I respectfully request that the webmaster remove the post with it listed.
Thank you.
Oh Highwayman. It was a delight chatting with you. We are on the same page, no doubt.
ReplyDeleteIf the author of that post does not remove this, I respectfully request that the webmaster remove the post with it listed.
ReplyDeleteI agree. A penalty flag is merited, and I will do so later this afternoon if casualobsever has not done so by then.
Which is to say: Groceries first, sanctions later.
R
I know that it sounds like splitting hairs on the citizenship question. In this situation, I think that it is important to look at it in the total context.
ReplyDeleteThe responsibility of the NA council is to the CITIZENS of New Albany. If Mr. Wickens wished to present himself solely as an expert on the topic, I have no problem with that. That's not what he did.
He presented himself as president of ROCK and as a citizen of New Albany, representing other citizens of New Albany. (Do I dare mention that the other spokesmen for ROCK, at the second meeting, was from Louisville) It was a power play, pure and simple.
I sincerely hope that anyone, with any sense of open mindedness, would see that the residency distinction is important in this case.
I suspect that the New Albany address is Mr Wickens's office, since searching for him via the site casualobserver used to look up Mr Manzo brings up an address on Leith Lane in Louisville for a "Brian" Wickens: http://www.whitepages.com/search/FindPerson?extra_listing=mixed&form_mode=opt_b&post_back=1&firstname_begins_with=1&firstname=bryan&name=wickens&street=&city_zip=47150&state_id=IN&localtime=survey
ReplyDeleteBellsouth's 2007 white pages shows a "Brian" Wickens on Rock Cliff Ct in Louisville, and a D Bryan Wickens on Market St in Louisville.
There's also a D Bryan Wickens listed in the business section of the 7th edition Best Book (2005) as having an office at 120 W Spring in New Albany, which leads me to conclude that he & the guy on Market St in Louisville are the same as the ROCK president. Therefore, he works in New Albany, but doesn't live here.
Casual Observer, you see how the argument gets twisted? It doesn't matter at all where he lives, works or his tax exempt status...the rub is that he gets things done. He is a leader and he accomplishes items on his groups agenda. You may not like his agenda NAC readers, but unlike your group, his gets results.
ReplyDeleteDaniel,
ReplyDeleteYou're really not making any friends (or legitimate points) today. Regarding getting things done, you know not of what you speak.
I would certainly appreciate if you got some actual facts and information before running your mouth and insulting such a large group of people. I'm sure I'm not alone here.
Daniel,
ReplyDeleteI think what is question here is the fact that the person in question stated on public record that he is new albany resident to the council, when all indications seem to point to the fact he is not. Dishonesty (from the "leader" of a christian foundation cometh to save our very souls)
And as far as "this group" not getting results:
I am very pleased to announce that the Family Health Centers have recently completed a total of over $60K in capital investments to better serve the medically indigent, with anoth approximate $165k to come in the next few months... Results, and I might add results that will make a profound difference to the families of our community, their health, well being, and sense of self dignity.
Can Rock say the same?
Hitler got a lot done too. Let’s admire his leadership skills (and just brush over all the rest)?
ReplyDeleteOk, let me rephrase. ROCK is well organized. Can concerned citizens of NA say the same? I just feel that instead of tearing down a man for his efforts, you should concentrate more on your own. I have said several times that this group should take pointers from Mr. Wickens' group. Courtney, I am not trying to insult anyone nor trying to make friends, but calling a man a liar because he said he lives in NA is trying to blur the focus of this issue.
ReplyDeleteThe “C” in ROCK is for culture. ROCK sees its “culture” as right and everyone else’s “culture” as wrong, black and white. Are members required to grow beards and tote Kalashnikov's because I think I heard that same argument from the Taliban? History shows that when one group tries to assert its “culture” on another, bad bad things happen.
ReplyDeleteOk, I get it now...ROCK has just been compared to Hitler and the Taliban. Are you serious???????? Is that all you have????
ReplyDeleteI am not even saying that what Mr. Wickens does is right. Never said that here. What I said was he is effective. Why does it have to turn to Christians versus atheists or downtown versus exurbs?
ReplyDeleteAs Rev. Manzo has pointed out (if I can correctly interpret his well writing posts above), the dichotomy is not Christian vs. Atheist.
ReplyDeleteIt’s more like ROCK’s view of Christianity versus other views, including other views of Christianity.
And that it may very well be, but my point was not right or wrong, but rather the groups organization and effectiveness. I know, Hitler was organized and effective also. As I have said before, if you really want NA to change, take notes.
ReplyDeletePut another way, ROCK doesn’t want to share Christianity. ROCK believes Christianity is too small to accommodate people who want to take a pragmatic approach to helping the community. This is like the Taliban’s view of Islam. There are Muslims who do good deeds but then there are others who think whether a woman wears a veil is more important than whether she has clean drinking water.
ReplyDeleteAs a side note, I did compare ROCK to the Taliban but I did not compare them to Hitler. I compared the argument that we should admire ROCK for their organization to the argument that we should admire Hitler for his organization.
Daniel, I do agree with your point that NA needs more organization and leadership for pragmatic solutions to NA’s everyday needs.
ReplyDeleteThe Taliban reference is the one we should be following. But Rev. Wickens has already left the room (some time ago), so ...
ReplyDeleteRoger, he is probably planning his next move. Great reporting tonight, thanks.
ReplyDeleteAs an undercover officer, it would be very unusual to reveal the identity until the investigation is complete...
ReplyDeleteDo we know the whole former-FBI guy inside X really ever happened? It’s a great story to flames passions. What’s the proof that it’s true?
To imply that ROCK’s man inside X is doing some sort of official activity is typical ROCK. They do not draw a line between ROCK and government.
Just a reminder that the white pages posting of my address is still listed on here...
ReplyDeleteMr. Casual posted Rev. Manzo’s address. I read that as an implied “we know where you live” type threat. The Taliban used intimidation too.
ReplyDeleteDaniel,
ReplyDeleteIf it is not important where Mr. Wickens lives, why does he continue to make a(deceitful)point of it when introducing himself to the Council? He did it again last night. He is implying that he votes and that the members are responsible to him--and that is not true.
As for ROCK's effectiveness, that has been admired on these pages many times.
I have met Mr. Wickens once and I am not familiar with where he states that he lives. If he lives in the county like I do, then he should state that he lives there with a NA mailing address. I don't feel that it makes him a liar nor would it diminish his effectiveness if he said he lived elsewhere.
ReplyDeleteI concurred with the protest and have removed the 1:10 pm post by casualobsever, which included John Manzo's address. Here is the text sans address link:
ReplyDeleteiamhoosier should also ask himself why these attacks on Mr. Wickens. He is a New Albany resident.
http://lawyers.justia.com/lawyer/bryan-wickens-797828
Mr. Manzo should be able to speak up as well since they live in the same subdivision!!
I'd say the hypocrisy are the posters on this site
Daniel,
ReplyDeleteI would have thought that you were a straight arrow when it comes to the truth. Seriously.
I stand corrected.
Mr. Wickens seems like a nice man. He even made a little joke last night. I would have asked him about his citizenship but, as usual, he was out the door when his "issue" was over.