Anyone for a brief church/state diversion? The hearing described below occurred yesterday, but there is no word yet on outcomes, if any. Speaking for myself, if one must pay to tout the physical environment on a license plate, then surely an equal tithe should be made to make a mockery of church-state separation.
From the Indiana Lawyer website, courtesy of M.
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Court of Appeals to hear license plate arguments in Greencastle
Mon. October 13 - 2008 ... IL Staff
The Indiana Court of Appeals travels to Greencastle Oct. 14 to hear arguments in a case involving Indiana’s “In God We Trust” license plates.
Judges Michael Barnes, Terry Crone, and Margret Robb will hear arguments in Mark Studler v. Indiana Bureau of Motor Vehicles and Ronald Stiver, in his official capacity as Commissioner, No. 49A02-0804-CV-385. Mark Studler filed a suit against the Bureau of Motor Vehicles challenging Indiana Code Section 9-18-24.5-1, which authorizes the specialty “In God We Trust” license plate at no additional charge. He contends offering the plate at no fee violates Article I, Section 23 of the Indiana Constitution. Studler had to pay a $40 administrative fee to get his environmental specialty plate.
Studler is appealing the trial court’s grant of summary judgment in favor of the BMV. Arguments begin at 10 a.m. at the Walden Inn and Conference Center on the campus of DePauw University, 2 W. Seminary St., Greencastle.
"Beer is proof that God loves us"
ReplyDelete(Ben Franklin?)
That should be free, too.
Isn't the fee for the environmental plate for a donation to the environmental cause? The "In God We Trust" plate does not disperse money to any group. Does this man not accept American dollars because the same phrase is printed on them? If you guys lobby enough, you might be able to get a plate that reads "In Self I Trust."
ReplyDeleteComes the mantra of "self" loathing again.
ReplyDeleteActually, I'd like for them to say "In human reason we trust," but only because virtually every significant advancement in the life of man has accrued from the application of reason, not theology.
The basic thing necessary for money is an indication of worth. Beyond that, it's all decor, and (among others) European money currently is more valuable and prettier than ours, without reference to unprovable supreme beings.
Article 1 Section 23:
ReplyDeleteThe General Assembly shall not grant to any citizen, or class of citizens, privileges or immunities, which, upon the same terms, shall not equally belong to all citizens.
Good luck winning that one. It is the national motto and it is available to everyone free of cost. Please pay more taxes this year to reimburse the state for the legal fees you are costing them.
Jake's right. It should be removed as the national motto first.
ReplyDelete"My own feeling in the matter is due to my very firm conviction that to put such a motto on coins, or to use it in any kindred manner, not only does no good but does positive harm, and is in effect irreverence, which comes dangerously close to sacrilege...It is a motto which it is indeed well to have inscribed on our great national monuments, in our temples of justice, in our legislative halls, and in building such as those at West Point and Annapolis -- in short, wherever it will tend to arouse and inspire a lofty emotion in those who look thereon. But it seems to me eminently unwise to cheapen such a motto by use on coins, just as it would be to cheapen it by use on postage stamps, or in advertisements."
ReplyDeletePresident Theodore Roosevelt on the "In God We Trust" motto.
Hopefully, the party of Teddy Roosevelt will come to its senses and listen to the person who they proclaim to be a visionary.
The lady that sold us our cell phones was complaining about the religious plates recently. She was harassed by the lady at the BMV for not choosing the god option.
ReplyDeleteEarly on, it wasn't entirely clear whether one had a choice in getting the religious plate. I know people who paid extra for another specialty plate for the first time in their lives just to avoid advertising religion.
I also know some folks who got the god plates without asking for them.
When I got the tags for both of our cars I was never harassed about the "God plate", one time I wasn't even asked.
ReplyDeleteI really find it hard to believe that the BMV would give a crap one way or the other who gets what plate, I could however see an employee trying to push it, and if that was the case why wasn't a complaint filed?
I wonder why did anyone ASK if they had to get a "God Plate" or was it more fun to run around claiming persecution?
Look, I could honestly not care one way or the other, I'm just really surprised at the stink that is being raised around it. I mean THIS is the most important issue in someones life?
My friend's mom works for the BMV in another county and she told him that, at the beginning, the God plates were used as the new standard plates until a complaint was filed. Then they started using these generic blue plates as the standard and people had to ask for the God plates but they weren't charged for it.
ReplyDeleteThe lady that sold us our cell phones was complaining about the religious plates recently. She was harassed by the lady at the BMV for not choosing the god option.
ReplyDeleteThat's a scream. The government employee proletyzing on the government's dime probably is the very same one complaining that she can't post her real name for fear of persecution.
Apparently, the BMV employee asked her if she wanted the god plate. She answered no. The lady then asked her if she was sure. She said yes, she was sure.
ReplyDeleteThe BMV lady then indignantly said, "Well, why wouldn't you want the plate? Are you not a Christian or something?"
I think cell phone lady's next response included quite a bit more than yes or no.
Thanks to Bayern for confirming the default distribution of the god plate. I was flabbergasted at seeing so many until I asked one of my buddies that had one and he told me it was just what they mailed him.
The next thing you know they'll be requiring prayer at government meetings...
Jake's right. It should be removed as the national motto first.
ReplyDeleteEven if you remove it as the national motto, you'd still have to find grounds for a lawsuit. It is available to everyone at the same cost and other designs are available at the same price. I think it is the state motto of Florida too. We could find bigger things to address first. Some examples might be the economy, national security, national budget, illegal immigration, energy independence, health care, education, the environment, cancer research, stem cells, social security, war in iraq, income tax, national sales tax, fair tax, tort reform, and probably another thousand or so more important issues.
If the ability to promote one's religion via the BMV isn't a privilege, then what is it?
ReplyDeleteOr are you suggesting that each of us can ask for whatever message we want on a license plate and the BMV will distribute them all over the state?
Jake wrote:
ReplyDeleteWe could find bigger things to address first. Some examples might be the economy, national security, national budget, illegal immigration, energy independence, health care, education, the environment, cancer research, stem cells, social security, war in iraq, income tax, national sales tax, fair tax, tort reform, and probably another thousand or so more important issues.
I didn't see a smoking ordinance anywhere in there. Are you sure the city council approved your message?
The ideal slogan should be "One Nation Under the Constitution," which document never mentions God. This was not an accidental oversight; the Framers debated this at length. The slogan "One Nation Under God" was inserted into the Pledge of Allegiance in the 1950s, in the depths of the Cold War, to emphasize that our adversaries were atheists.
ReplyDeleteNow I don't much mind the presence of the slogan on our currency or license plates, except it is often used by Christianists to assert this nation is Christian. In fact, of course, our nation is secular—and Christians of all stripes should be very very grateful that it is. Our unique system has allowed Christianity (and other religions) to thrive, because the government does not promote one sect over another, does not control any religion, and does not hinder any religion. And while I am a practicing Episcopalian, it pains me that there are those who believe that agnostics and atheists are less American than theists.
William wrote:
ReplyDeleteAnd while I am a practicing Episcopalian, it pains me that there are those who believe that agnostics and atheists are less American than theists.
Amen to that. But several million of my countrymen surely do believe this, don't they? And while I'm an atheist, I find diversity refeshing, and refrain from insisting that they be like me. Yet they can't resist couching the secular in religious terms.
William, thanks for resting the case with "One nation under the Constitution." Would it be as clear to others.
Iamhoosier - Can we really really please have that plate you suggest? What would the "donation" for said be for?
ReplyDeleteI have them. I do trust God and have no problem with having the plates on my car. I also have no problem with someone else choosing to not have them. If someone feels that there needs to be a fee for these plates and no one knows where to pay the fee, I'd be happy to provide an address. :-)
ReplyDeleteIn any case,we are in the middle of a Presidential election, we are in a major economic crisis, and at war in two different nations. I simply cannot get myself worked up into a lather.
Oh, additionally, the Giants lost by three touchdowns on national TV and people are debating license plates????
The court heard oral arguments on Tuesday, and I am pretty sure that they took the matter under advisement. It will probably be some while before a decision is rendered. I will provide NAC with an additional link when I receive word of any ruling.
ReplyDeleteI personally do not have a problem with the plates.
ReplyDeleteI mean I dont have a problem carrying US currency, or spending it. I prefer to pay the extra $ for environmental tags. My wife has the plates in question, of course right beside the plates is one of the silver stick-on Ichtus that has " 'N CHIPS " in the middle of it....