Here it is: The resident contrarian’s case in favor of mayoral intervention in the Greatly Unnecessary Smoking Debate of ’08.
(After all, I wouldn’t want to use the word “veto” … so, sticking to my principles, I’ll happily persist in doing so.)
I’m told that Mayor Doug England will hold a press conference next Tuesday morning circa 10:00 a.m. to reveal whether he’ll put the kibosh on the city council’s controversial smoking ordinance, or permit it to stand on its wobbly feet.
None of us on the outside will ever know the full depth and range of Mayor England’s thought processes in making this decision. I imagine he’s being pelted with advice from all angles (see below for mine), and predictably, outside interests already have weighed in with a full page advertisement in the Tribune, as referenced in today’s Courier-Journal:
Opponents and supporters have continued to lobby England in an attempt to win him over.
One of the latest efforts was from the American Heart Association and Americans for Nonsmokers’ Rights, which took out a full-page ad in today’s New Albany Tribune.
The ad said second-hand smoke causes heart disease, cancer and other health problems, that bar and restaurant workers are at greatest risk and that most area residents support the ordinance.
The ad, which asked if England would stand for “all workers and the public” or “big tobacco and its allies,” urged people to contact the mayor and ask him to sign the measure.
The money spent on that ad alone might have purchased a working toilet or two for a rundown rental property, don’t you think? But I forget so very quickly that the professional public health lobbyists don’t have a dog in the slumlord abatement fight.
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Me?
I believe the mayor should veto the ordinance, primarily because there has yet to be a telephone poll that asks the truly pertinent question: Would you rather the city council ban workplace smoking, or take action to pave the streets?
I’m guessing that such a poll would return a majority in favor of smoother driving surfaces, and one well in excess of that portion of the populace favoring a smoking ban in the absence of substantive progress in other areas.
I believe the mayor can make a perfectly logical case that far from being a measure assisting in the furtherance of public health, the ordinance in fact is little more than frivolous in nature – that it is yet another in a series of unfunded mandates of the sort that usually emanate from Indianapolis or Washington, D.C., except that this time around, it comes from our own council. The ordinance as written is unenforceable, and as such, frivolous isn’t too strong a word to describe it.
I believe that the mayor can plausibly connect the smoking issue with economic development by noting that the city council, having established a changed condition of daily business operation that will require fair and equitable enforcement, has made no provision for such enforcement apart from expecting the businesses that stand to be hurt most by the ordinance to pay for its accommodation by constructing elaborate outdoor smoking areas that surely will be the next target of an insatiable (and perpetually carpetbagging) anti-smoking lobby.
I believe the mayor can accurately decry the transparently shambolic nature of council president Gahan’s somewhat less than deft guidance of the smoking “debate,” which in the end comprised a solitary and inadequate public meeting and two catastrophically truncated public “speaking” allowances, all of which amounted to the council’s pro-ban bloc honoring the need for discourse only in the barest of minimum permissible breaches, and not in such a manner as to allow anything remotely approximating sufficient discussion pertaining to a topic destined to divide the citizenry.
Yes, these may be viewed in some quarters as procedural technicalities. I’m not a lawyer, but it is a regular, recurring and fully justified feature of the American system of governance that we expect important decisions to be made in a way – in the “right” way -- that involves people, and not excludes them, and yet the unprecedented speed with which an eternally dormant council moved to facilitate legislative action that was nowhere to be seen or sighted in any council candidate’s platform during the last election.
This largely underreported aspect of the current situation is perhaps the most annoying of all.
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Does anyone else wonder why an issue now being portrayed as critically important did not produce a blip on last year's electoral radar screen?
Does anyone else remember when King Larry Kochert, then the council president, announced that 2007 would be the year when his cherished smoking ban finally came into effect, and the same reactionary who did so much for so long to keep New Albany rooted in the 19th century would suddenly leapfrog the moribund experience of long decades by the magically simple act of chasing smokers from their bar stools, into the streets, to disappear into unrepaired pot holes?
Remember how the smoking ordinance unceremoniously died almost on the spot, and how none of the council members at the time – and none of the candidates challenging them – uttered so much as a peep about smoking as the 2007 election loomed?
How not one of them campaigned on a platform of smoking as the issue most deserving of immediate action in 2008 -- for that matter, was it even in the Top 10 of any candidate's published list of aims?
Was it ever mentioned publicly on the campaign trail one single time?
Actually, to be fair to the candidates, not a one of them offered a decipherable platform of any sort, smoking or otherwise, but I digress.
Which brings me to the primary reason I hope Mayor England vetoes the smoking ordinance. As my high school baseball coach was known to say, the covert way all this has come down, and the timing of it coming down, is chickenshit, plain and simple, and I’m not using that word because I want to spare Steve Price the indignity of being the only potty mouth hereabouts.
Rather, this legislative spectacle was transformed into political theater early on, and it has been bereft of political courage from start to finish. Why this, and why now? No one has provided a satisfactory answer, and until they do: Mayor England, muddy the scrum and veto this ordinance.
Give ‘em a year under strict supervision to do something genuinely progressive, and to undertake it sans the subterfuge that has been such an alarming aspect of the smoking travesty, and I’m quite willing to visit the smoking issue again, but not under the current discredited terms.
I know that quite a few of you disagree with my thoughts, and that’s fine. In the end, given my personal interests and my chosen vocation, perhaps I’m overly sensitive to the historical atrocities wrought by the prohibitionist instinct in America. They’re documented, and they’re real. Given that experience, the legislative bar needs to be higher, doesn't it?
Let me get this straight. Because other things are more important and because the process was flawed and because the council majority includes hypocrites...the mayor should kill the ordinance?
ReplyDeleteThat's dangerously close to FOS's "vote McCain to punish Obama" reasoning (I apologize for even using the word "reasoning" for that claptrap, but, eh).
I love you, man, but this "ends justifies the means" approach, this full-court attack, might just be being applied to the wrong vote.
I'm as disgusted/disappointed/disheartened by the performance of this council (and this administration) as the next guy or gal. But...
Just say what you believe. Are the "out-of-towners" wrong? Do patrons and employees deserve protection, or do property rights reign supreme here?
If the American Heart Assn and Lung Assn are involved at the local level, you can bet they are actively pushing for a statewide ban. I do not think Mayor England should veto the ordinance just to buy a little time. 25 states now have bans. It will happen in Indiana, sooner or later.
ReplyDeleteAdults certainly have the right to choose to smoke or not. However, the majority of people do not smoke. The issue is whether smokers should be allowed to pollute the indoor oxygen of non-smokers.
The condition of the city's rental property and problems with street paving bear no relationship to whether or not a smoking ordinance should be passed.
Why this, and why now?
ReplyDeleteI'm still waiting, and I'm being consistent with what I said all along. I love Tommy Kaiser, but his exemption was the trip wire. It meant that politics, not science, would be the deciding factor, and as such, that opened the floodgates for me, in essence, to say that because Jeff Gahan defecated atop the Constitution during the redistricting imbroglio, I'm free to do the same atop his smoking ordinance. Good guys like John Gonder get stuck in the middle, but at the same time, it is no more demonstrable that a majority is for smoking cessation than any other simplistic question asked in a stacked poll query.
If the carpetbaggers stick around for the next fight, I'll be duly impressed. Until then, I'm not. When the health department gets involved in other issues of public health that (admittedly in my opinion) are more important, same deal.
'Til then, the Bookseller is perfectly free to disagree. I may be wrong, and I may be right, but in my mind, I'm playing the hand that has been dealt while avoiding the truly nonsensical arguments being made by the anti-ban people.
Because other things are more important and because the process was flawed and because the council majority includes hypocrites...the mayor should kill the ordinance?
ReplyDelete[...]
Just say what you believe.
The bookseller beat me to the punch. Respectfully, I don't think the scrum muddy approach computes anymore. Mayor England should approve this ordinance.
I will have to echo Bookseller on this one.
ReplyDelete99% of the time, I find your arguments to be logical and on point, even on those rare occasions that I may disagree with you. This time, it appears that your logic is not coming from your brain but from something that you sit on. No, not your ass. Your wallet. And that's okay, just don't confuse them.
To the contrary. My wallet is the farthest thing from my mind, but it is absolutely true that wallet considerations will come into play for others.
ReplyDeleteOne would imagine that the lawyers here, degreed or otherwise, might appreciate the counter argument, something our system celebrates, but instead, it appears that for at leat some, personal preferences are trumping principle.
I eagerly await an answer: Given the full list of health concerns and just plain concerns, why this -- and why now?
Anyone?
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ReplyDeletelet's not forget that tobacco is a legal product. I choose not to smoke and try to avoid second hand smoke but I feel it is beyond the authority of any government to ban a legal product being used in a public place except in its own facilities.
ReplyDeleteI believe that second hand smoke is a health hazard but the tort process can take care of any claims made by individuals who can prove they have been medically impacted by second hand smoke, of course a person has the option of not patronizing a restaurant, club bar etc. that alllows smoking and a worker has the option of not working in such an establishment or again in a tort claim.
I agree with Roger, the council did this all for show to mask their incompetence in addressing the real problms and issues in New Albany
Rog, I don't think anyone disagrees with you that the timing makes no sense. The issue raised was whether timing and flawed process justify a veto.
ReplyDelete[edited for typo]
NA,
ReplyDeleteI don't think anyone disagrees with you on the many other "concerns". I don't know why "now" but what does that have to with approving or disproving the smoking ordinance? Absolutely nothing.
The question is, "Does SHS rise to a sufficient hazard level, that it needs to be regulated for employee safety?" Not, what is Gahan up to? Not, why now?
And it certainly is not, is this an "end run" or smokescreen for the anti-smoking lobby? Maybe it is, but all you have to do is answer the question above. If SHS does not rise to the level, tell the "lobby" to shut up. If it does, you protect the employees and to heck with the lobby's motives.
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ReplyDeleteEW,
ReplyDeleteAll kinds of "legal" products are regulated for storage and use in the name of safety.
I agree with you, Roger, and the many others who question some of the motives and timing. That has to do with the priorities and performance of the Council. However, that has nothing to do with the ordinance. It's here and has to be dealt with. Up or down.
Does SHS pose such a threat to employee health as to require an law forbidding smoking in public venues.
ReplyDeleteBoy that can open a huge can of worms!
What other dangers face the workers that must be considered for immediate action?
According to Osha, the number one cause of missed time due to injury/illness is back injuries, and the number one occupation for this hazard is nursing assistant. Do we immediately ban the aged and invalid from seeking care due to the number of people injured?
Second on the list comes tripping/Slipping, oddly enough one of the lowest ranked occupations as far as illness/injury is in fact the hospitality industry.
There is no doubt SHS can be hazardous, but that may be subjective. Underlying health issues, genetics, etc all play a roll in how much shs will affect a person, and it differs from person to person.
BUT the data collected by the DOL and OSHA do not support the claims made by the lobbyists of how many people are injured by the presence of SHS.
I agree it can be harmful, which is why, even as a smoker myself, I do not smoke in my home, and more often than not we CHOOSE to patron locally owned businesses that do not alllow smoking when we go out to eat.
We have done so the entire time we have been married, even when we were just dating. And no laws were in place to force us to do so.
My wife is one of the poor defenseless workers who is obviously to uneducated, and unskilled so that she has to work in a restaurant (Ignore the 3.8 GPA, Magna Cum Laude, and repeated ranking on the directors list of a respected culinary arts school), and guess what she has made choices where she works, and not once has she chosen to work in a chokingly smoke filled back alley bar and grill, and she did so with out any laws being passed. She made the mature, informed decisions on her very own!
Chris,
ReplyDeleteYou wrote a whole lot of words to say "no". I don't have a problem with that.
Everything else is bunk. You could use most of your arguments to argue againt any safety rules what-so-ever. Surely you are not advocating that!?
By no means am I arguing against all safety rules and regs. Ensuring those are properly enforced is 50% of my job for 4 medical clinics here in southern Indiana.
ReplyDeleteI am simply citing that by way of comparison, the dangers of SHS are trivial compared to the other dangers in the workplace. And the numbers from Iosha, OSHA, and the DOL show this clearly.
I also was simply pointing out that we (my family) were able to make decisions on our own to avoid shs nearly completely, both as patrons and employees of the hospitality industry, with out the intervention by legislation. Which I might add seems to be a thought process rarely accepted or acknowledged by most ban supporters.
We can pass this and "protect" the workers for 40 hours per week, but continue to be derelict in the arena of public safety,in terms of the housing infrastructure in the city for the remaining 128 hours the "workers" go home to unsfe housing, facing mold problems, radon, faulty wiring, non-working plumbing, insect and rodent infestations (a leading cause of allergies and asthma attacks)
I feel like Micael Corleone, "Just when I think I'm out, they drag me back in."
ReplyDeleteThe timing of the ordinance was benign. It was not plotted beforehand as a legislative equivalent of "Look! It's Halley's comet."
Contrary to opinion stated or implied in blog comments, the Council does not have a cohesive legislative agenda. Much of what the Coouncil does is reactive to moves by the administration. That's not the case with the smoking ordinance. It was generated from within the Council. Perhaps that is seen as a step out of the normal order and that accounts for some of the reaction, a pardigm shift. To the extent it represents legislative creation, I think that is a good development, whether you agree with this ordinance or not. The Council outlook, taken as a whole, is largely progressive. I could even make the case it is more progressive than the administration's, but I may be biased. I think a progressive agenda is good. That's why I'm what is commonly referred to as a liberal. If one assesses ideas on the horizon, I can't see where protection of worker's health can fall anywhere outside the progressive realm. Bar workers' health should fall within that protection.
I'm certain there could have been other ordinances introduced to address this health issue. I'm certain because I wrote one. It was not as comprehensive as the one introduced. It would surely not have been acceptable to those who are objecting to the miniscule exception granted to Tobacco sellers because it would have granted many more exceptions.
That ordinance would have moved the city closer to a time of no smoking. It would have protected many more workers than are protected by the current hands-off approach. But when the frame of the argument is to protect workers' health, comprehensive is the only path to follow. The exemption for tobacco sellers is not a writing off of those people as unworthy of protection, it is, rather, a recognition of the reality that such exemptions have fared well under legal review in other locales and that some case can be made for the exemption on the basis of sampling tobacco. Recall that until a couple years ago the sale of fireworks in the state of Indiana was illegal, but was given the cloak of legality through the purchase of a $2.00"permit" to shoot off the fireworks in a designated area; the point being that the rather lame exemptions in this ordinance in no way rise to that level of hypocrisy. I can hear now the call from some for universality. I think that call is simply a dodge. I can't fathom the reason for it, and my lack of understanding is by no means an attack against those who express such sentiment.
I think the Mayor should sign the ordinance. He should recognize the will of the majority, roughly 2/3, of the citizens. Then the Mayor and the Council should work together to offer positive help to those bars affected by the shifting ground the ordinance has caused. It will be better for the citizens' health, better for the image of the city and its economic development, and a recognition of reality in the year 2008.
Let me please second new alb annie's comment that "[t]he condition of the city's rental property and problems with street paving bear no relationship to whether or not a smoking ordinance should be passed."
ReplyDeleteI might also add that if someone wants to argue that business people should have the right to decide if smoking is permitted in their establishments, then it makes no sense to argue that "slumlords" have no right to decide whether to maintain their rental properties as they see fit. It might be suggested that the rental property owners are providing a valuable public service by making affordable rental units available to the working poor. Undoubtedly, one might complain that these rental units are not safe or healthy to inhabit—but then that's the whole reason for a smoking ban: to ensure that work environments are safe and healthy.
I feel like Michael Corleone, "Just when I think I'm out, they drag me back in."
ReplyDeleteGood one!
Once again, I appreciate the way that John Gonder, ALONE AMONG THE PRO-BAN VOTES, has taken the time to comment and explain his position.
When the council president begins taking part, we'll see a truly progressive horizon, don't you think?
Just one minor point, John: Where's the 2/3 public support statistic coming from?
Thanks.
Roger
I've been thinking about this a lot today. I see comparisons in the blogosphere frequently to other progressive Indiana cities--Carmel, Bloomington, Indianapolis, Columbus--when we discuss things like rental housing control, invigorating downtown, walkable/bikable neighborhoods, and on and on. We describe those communities as progressive. One thing all of them have in common are public smoking ordinances.
ReplyDeleteThe issue has always been workplace safety and the effects of SHS. Yes, I can choose not to patronize a bar or establishment if I take offense to their smoking policy. Yes, I suppose if I worked in an office and I didn't like the smoking policy, I could find a job elsewhere.
What about the people who work in businesses that permit smoking who don't have the same flexibility that I, or you, might have? Does it seem reasonable that the minimum-wage waitress or dishwasher who doesn't smoke should just cast around until they find a place to work that prohibits smoking? How much clout does such a person have with their employer--do you think they can 'call the shots' and demand that their workplace be smoke free?
It seems odd to me that some of us feel we need to step in to defend a segment of the community's right to safe housing, but not a safe workplace. Seems like they would deserve both.
...if someone wants to argue that business people should have the right to decide if smoking is permitted in their establishments, then it makes no sense to argue that "slumlords" have no right to decide whether to maintain their rental properties as they see fit.
ReplyDeleteMr. Lang has cut through to the meat of the matter.
A more direct question:
ReplyDeleteDid 2/3's of the public come forward and ask for this, or is the "poll" reactionary as to if they agree with smoking bans or disagree with smoking bans?
Roger:
ReplyDeleteI'm no pollster but I accept the numbers I'm using from the Heart Assoc. and Lung Assoc. Below is an Indiana survey from earlier in the year which pretty much jibes with what the "paid lobbyists" are spoon feeding us:
By a strong majority (59 percent to 39 percent), Indiana voters support a law prohibiting smoking “in indoor public places, including workplaces, public buildings, offices, casinos, restaurants and bars.” (Public Opinion Strategies and Mellman Group survey of 500 Indiana voters 1-14-08 to 1-15-08).
I could probably find other surveys but this should suffice.
Happy Labor Day...
Remember worker's rights today are grounded in a strong labor movement yesterday. How secure are those rights in an environment where union representation covers only 15% of workers?
Thanks, John.
ReplyDeleteOf course, som readers might raise their eyebrows and offer to provide polls conducted by the anti-ban bloc. Surely those would have credibility, eh?
Lots of good arguments here. But I have to ask Ecology Warrior how a waitress working for tips (without the the 3.9 GPA, Magna cum Laude distinction of Christopher's wife)can realistically be told she has to hire a lawyer to prove she is being harmed by second-hand smoke? She'd be breathing in a whole lot more of that SHS by the time she got any "justice". (BTW, isn't "ecology warrior" a bit of an oxymoron on this issue?)
ReplyDeleteRuthanne:
ReplyDeleteI know this is apples and oranges to the real meat of this conversation, but saying someone who goes by Eco warrior against the ordinance may have some value to it.
Lets set aside for a moment the whole workplace safety issue, and say the ordinance passes. Smokers are then led outside like the little black sheep of the community that they must be, people are not going to quit smoking because of the ordinance.
The go out to the sidewalks, etc to smoke, with the absence of ashtray, which are readily available inside before the bans, where are all of the ciggy butts going to end up? Thats right on the street and sidewalks, since I dont think there is a butt fairy floating around exchanging ciggy butts for shiney quarters, the majority of this will end up washing down the storm drains and make their way to the river.
So we are trading one potential hazard for another. instead of pockets of polluting air filled with the whispy gray coat of the grim reaper we know as SHS, we will be sending thousands of butts into the river, where they weer once tossed out and sent to the landfill to be properly disposed of with the other wasteful habits of our society.
Instead they will be washed into the Ohio River, steeping a lovely tea of the chemicals found in them.
Hell, one of the best "organic" pesticides one can use against flower garden pests is a "tea" made from cig butts.
We can clear up the air in restaurants and bars, and in exchange add even more pollution to our local watershed!!
(think it doesnt happen? take a stroll down spring street in Jeff, in front of Clark Memorial or Floyd Memorial Hospitals.
Chris, I do think that smoking bans impact the smoking rate. I think by making smoking less acceptable in public, it discourages youth from picking up the habit.
ReplyDeleteI know that when I started smoking, at age 14, there was little to nothing in the way of smoking control or education. My high school even provided a 'smoking area' out back for the kids to go smoke. There was just a very basic warning on cigarette packs, and no one got ID'd when buying. No one questioned kids smoking in public either.
That all made it very easy to start and continue to smoke at a time when I did not have the maturity or judgment to make such a decision. Of course, in just a few short years, the novelty of smoking and thinking I looked pretty cool with a cigarette wore off, but I was by then a confirmed, addicted smoker.
I quit for health reasons--a strong family history of cancer and the realization as an adult that I had made a bad decision as a kid. If I had been subjected to education coupled with a public smoking ban, I suspect I never would have developed the habit.
Roger:
ReplyDeleteNo doubt you are correct. Didn't somebody say something about "Lies. Damn lies, and polling data"?
But,I'm sticking with the smoking numbers and any poll numbers that show Cheney at 18%.
Christopher:
My better judgement tells me to pass up any comment on the Butt Fairy.
Gee, same four faces on wave 3 news... Yeah, thats the majority of the city demanding the ordinance.
ReplyDeleteGo away and stay away Abersold. Second hand jazz is hazardous to persons ears!
gee ruthanne arent you the same blogger who stated that businesses negatively impacted by this ordinance would fail anyway due to incompetence in their business operations, are you a politician or a BS artist magna cum laude or loud ? Dont question my commitments to the environmental agenda with your two bit words
ReplyDeleteAt the risk of being accused of plagiary (again) One can only hope that the degree of intensity demonstrated, not only here but in Council's Chambers, bars, water coolers,eateries, and newspapers around New Albany will remain alive for upcoming issues.
ReplyDeleteSo which bookie is holding the best odds?
One would think that a topic that's all about the science would lead to a scientific debate.
ReplyDeleteI don't know about the odds, Lloyd, but I will bet that the arguments used to oppose the smoking ban will be mirrored by the city's slumlords soon:
ReplyDelete1. There's no evidence to prove that the condition of my rental property is adversely affecting tenant's health.
2. My tenants don't mind and are not asking for a rental ordinance.
3. I will lose business and probably go under if I have to submit to a rental ordinance. Tenants will go to Jeff and Clarksville instead.
4. People will be homeless because I will go out of business.
5. This is just one group of people (homeowners) trying to force their aesthetics/lifestyle on my tenants and my property.
6. Why just rental property? Isn't everyone worth protecting?
And finally, if the smoke ban is vetoed:
7. If everyone is so concerned about public health, why don't we have a public smoking ban?
The good news, Annie, is that the conditions we seek to curtail with regard to housing are already illegal, unlike smoking.
ReplyDeleteI don't doubt some slumlords will argue as you say, but it's really not an accurate analogy.
Interesting piece on second-hand smoke in the latest Skeptical Inquirer illustrating how some antismoking groups will misrepresent legitimate research to further their own agendas.
ReplyDeleteThe article cites Boston University tobacco researcher Michael Siegel, who also appears to have a presence on Blogger: http://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com/
One of his studies shows such misrepresentation from Americans for Nonsmokers' Rights: http://www.epi-perspectives.com/content/4/1/12
Question for Roger (though someone else may have already asked): Since you've written that the ordinance is unenforcable as written, do you plan to ignore it should the mayor decide against a veto? Are any business owners affected by the ordinance planning on ignoring it, should it stand?
Good question, El B.
ReplyDeleteNow that I've emerged as about the only commentator willing to ask the hard political questions, my guess would be that there'll be those watching us closely. Obviously, I can't endanger our income without securing agreement from my partners.
What I am considering is purchasing a tobacco permit from the state, selling single cigars and individual cigarattes, and claiming status as a tobacco shop where customers are entitled to sample the wares whether the health of employees is endangered or not.
Beats me, El B. I thought a dose of contrarianism was needed in this debate, but then again, I'm not a spine doctor.
Heres a few questions that I would like to have answered, most will label them as being petty, but none the less the questions are based on facts.
ReplyDeleteFirst the facts:
The bans in Jeff and Louisville have moved the smokers outside, standing on the sidewalks, curbs and streets, leading to not only what I had mentioned yesterday regarding the butts being tossed to the ground (I am planning on going early to photograph this, if my recent leg problem permits) generally ending up being washed down the storm drains ending up in the river. I know the simple solution is for smokers not to toss the butts like that, but reality is, that is not going to happen.
In addition to the that, since the inception of the smoking ban in jeff and at Clark Memorial hospital, the number of fires started in the mulch and grass has been unbelievable. I know at our new facility I have all ready personally put out 12 mulch fires, 1 trash fire, other employees have put out at 3 other mulch fires. Before the smoking ordinances up there, I had put out 1 grass fire in 8 years. Coming out of floyd memorial the other day after a procedure related to my gimpy leg, there were two separate mulch fires smoldering, Any and all ashtrays were removed because it was generally believed that would in fact reduce the desire of the smokers to do so on the property.
Will the city of New Albany at least be willing to invest in combination ashtrays/ trash cans to place outside the businesses on the sidewalks for the facilities where adding an outside patio area is not an option?
Any takers on this question?