Earlier in the week, NAC post Distance Education led to a lively discussion of school transportation methodology and who should bear the brunt of financing it.
Regular reader Brandon W. Smith offered an astute question in the comments section:
We already get taxed different rates depending on where we choose to live (well, at least where we choose to own property). If it turns out that county folks are having a disproportionate impact on school resources, then why shouldn’t the school corporation tax rates be able to reflect that?
The "who should pay" or "why should we pay" question is one we seem to ask quite often, but usually in regard to services for low income populations for whom choices are limited. That makes it all the more intriguing then, that the same type of question never seems to come up in the context of services for those who generally can afford to pay but choose more expensive outcomes.
Indeed, if distance is a major contributor to the cost of government service delivery, why then is it not calculated in the price of those services?
Ok Jeff, here we go again. Taxes are higher on those in the county because of the value of their property, not their rate. Exactly what services do we in the county use or need to pay for disproportionately? City police? Garbage pickup? I already had a hefty sewer tap fee built into the price of my property to help pay for the new lines and finance years of looking the other way on maintenance and neglect. Here we come again to bail that bustling city out some more. By the way, I derived from Roger's post about Indiana basketball that he went to school up on the hill. Has he recovered from the years of guilt that he must have faced from riding the bus or being dropped off instead of skipping gleefully there every morn?
ReplyDeleteYour property taxes are made up from a variety of smaller tax rates, including a school corporation tax rate. Yes, your total property tax bill largely driven by assessed value, so what. None of what you said is relevant to my question quoted in Jeff's post.
ReplyDeleteWell, you might actually ask me directly.
ReplyDelete"Roger, have you recovered from the years of guilt that you must have faced from riding the bus or being dropped off instead of skipping gleefully there every morn?"
That's better. Sorry to put words in your mouth, but I suppose someone's got to do it. It makes better sense that way.
But I must point out that a better question would be:
"Roger, have you recovered from the years of indoctrination that you must have faced from gleefully skipping religious and patriotic elders dropping off loads of believe-this-forever crap to be (hopefully promptly) forgotten rather than making a genuine effort to teach children how to think?"
Nah, I guess YOU wouldn't ask that question, so I'll answer the first one instead, with one hand on my own Bible, "The Good Beer Guide to Belgium."
When I was in school, we generally car-pooled (riding with my mom, a teacher, or with a friend on the same road) when not using the bus. During summer school, I rode my bike back and forth in good weather. I did not have a car of my own at that time. Of course, playing sports meant putting more miles on the family vehicle.
The larger issue with me is why it matters at this point, seeing as life is a constant process of educational evolution. I grew up in something approximating the countryside, and now I've no desire to live there even though my mom still does. As the late great John Entwistle observed:
When I was a boy
I had the mind of a boy
Now I'm a man
Ain't got no mind at all
Sorry, gotta ride my bike to work now. Ciao.
Answer to Brandon - We already pay more, elderly on fixed incomes pay even though their children have children now. It is the responsibility of a society to educate their children. Let's look to ways of cutting expenses in other areas or for additional revenues like local businesses getting involved.
ReplyDeleteRoger, thank you so much for the clarity of your answer to my obvious humor. How come my humor is always taken as held beliefs? Can't we add a little fun to this whole dang thing?
Certified 2007 Floyd County Tax Rates
ReplyDeleteFranklin Township 1.8346
Georgetown township 2.0074
Georgetown Town 2.2399
Greenville Township 1.8498
Lafayette Township 1.9418
New Albany Township 1.9271
New Albany City 2.6479
We do pay different tax rates depending on where we live.
Someone complained to me one time about street sweeping in the city, "Why should you get your streets swept when we don't get our streets swept out here?" My answer was, "Because I pay for it."
Of course the assumption is that the areas outside the cities/towns are made up primarily of sparsely populated farm land. When that changes and more services are needed the tax rate usually goes up. It doesn't look like we have really had that increase yet in Floyd county.
Oh, by the way, I thought the post that started this discussion was about mega-schools. I first heard about the plans for mega-schools on my third grade field trip to visit the mayor and it's an idea that just seems to keep rearing it's ugly head. Last time I am aware that it came up again was about 12 years ago. I don't think that the discussion was limited to the city schools.
Perhaps the humor isn't obvious. That's be a place to start, wouldn't it?
ReplyDeleteNA Girl - What services are needed in the county other than school busing? I already pay ID to pick up my trash. I really don't need my street swept either. You city folks can have those services. I sense a storm brewing over annexation in the coming years.
ReplyDeleteTo make matterw worse, I have four children and they all ride the bus. Heck, my wife wants a fifth! Now compare that to a city fellow that has only one child that walks to school. We probably aren't far off in taxes, don't you think? Now that is just absurd (sarcasm).
Roger, I will attempt better, more obvious humor in the future. Maybe I can put remarks in parentheses so you will know when to chuckle. Just thought a little laughter would keep the discussion lively.
It's interesting that Daniel would bring up sewers as it provides a fine example for discussion.
ReplyDeleteOur household waste travels approximately one mile to the sewer plant for treatment.
How far does Daniel's travel? 10 miles? 15? 20?
On the low end, it requires 10 times as much line and maintenance to provide Daniel or someone in a similar situation with sewer service - more raw materials, more equipment, and more labor.
Odd then, that Daniel would attribute his tap-in fee to bailing out the city, especially when there were any number of preexisting houses vacant and available in both the city and the county at the time that his was constructed. Had he purchased any of those at various price points, he'd have likely paid no tap-in fee at all.
For someone who advocates for free market principles on a regular basis, he's failed to show an understanding of them.
Instead, he keeps trying to turn this into the tired old city vs. county argument when in reality it's a matter of simple economics. Given the same number of people, it costs more to provide them the same services when they are spread out in larger, sparsely populated areas than it does when they choose to live in compact, centralized, densely populated ones.
There's really no getting around that if we're going to have any sort of reality-based conversation about government spending. There are shared financial consequences to outward growth that can't be ignored.
Local government efficiency has been a hot topic of late due to property tax negotiations. Geographically distant, sparse development makes local government less efficient. If increased efficiency is really what we want, growth patterns have to be addressed as a significant contributing factor.
It is the responsibility of a society to educate their children. Let's look to ways of cutting expenses in other areas or for additional revenues like local businesses getting involved.
ReplyDeleteI agree with that statement. It still doesn't answer the question posed, however, unless I'm supposed to infer a "no" before the second sentence.
We all, city and county residents alike, pay the same rate per $100 of assessed property value for schools (even though our combined rate is different). Should we?
Maybe I can put remarks in parentheses so you will know when to chuckle.
ReplyDeleteTry writing them in French. Since I don't speak French, every time I see a French phrase in one of the hoity-toity atheist tomes I read, I just skip it and imagine it had something to do with sex.
(that was intended as humor)
What services are needed in the county other than busing.
ReplyDeleteOkay, I live in the county.
I also pay ID to pick up my garbage. I pay for my utilities. If my street is swept, I am unaware of it.
I don’t need busing because my kids are both away at college.
I’m not sure what part of the county you live in Daniel, but where I live when we dial 911 we can have the police department (County police/sheriff) come.
If I have a medical emergency I can dial 911 and the rescue squad will come.
If my house is on fire I can dial 911 and the fire department will come.
I’ve actually seen all these things happen. My daughter was in an accident several years ago and was taken to the hospital (where she was fine, thanks for asking) in an ambulance. The rescue squad cut her friend out of the car, and the fire department and police were all present.
A house burned down in our subdivision about 4 years ago and several fire departments came.
It snowed last week. My street was plowed.
When I flush the toilet the ‘stuff’ goes someplace that I do not know and do not want to know in sewer lines.
I travel to where I live on county roads and an Interstate each day.
I’d say that I do require more than busing in my neighborhood in the county.
For Roger:
ReplyDelete"Qu'ils mangent de la brioche."
-Marie Antoinette
"On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux."--Antoine de Saint Exupéry
I didn't include translations so that it wouldn't inhibit a sexual translation which would be infinitely more interesting than the real meanings.
John, the services you speak of are county services. Floyd County clears the snow from my street, New Chapel Volunteer Fire Dept. responds to fires in my area. What city services do I use? If it was not for taxes payed to the state by those that live in unincorporated areas, local municipalities would starve for funds. Their budget would be reduced significantly. Can New Albany be self sufficient? NO. It takes a re-distribution of tax money to support these cities.
ReplyDeleteAs rural areas are developed and gain population the character gradually changes from rural to suburban. In the dark ages of my childhood I lived in the area between Charlestown Rd., Klerner Ln., and Grantline Rd. and I watched it happen there. It is kind of hard to imagine when you see that area today but there were still woods, cows, and even some corn back then. (I am so old that I can remember when there was a farm house almost exactly where Richo's is today.)
ReplyDeleteOnce people move to these areas they start wanting things like paved roads instead of gravel. They want parks, they want full-time fire and ambulance service (do you know that currently in one of our townships there is basically no fire coverage during the daytime?). They want animal control and sewers and water.
For the most part these things have already been addressed in Floyd county and over the years the county has chipped in for services that were being provided by the city to the entire county, for example the animal shelter. Some services have been consolidated in order to serve everyone better, for example the schools.
Historically, the city residents have paid more than county residents for their services because they either had a higher level of service or because the denser population made those services more costly to deliver. With the price of of oil increasing it's not hard to see that reversed.
Daniel,
ReplyDeleteI certainly know who does what. My statement was in response to your question:
What services are needed in the county other than school busing?
I listed them. The question wasn't about which portion of the government was providing them, but that they were provided in the first place.
City residents are also residents of the county. They pay city, county, township tax with an adjustment for fire protection. Think sets from match class. Remember the circles that overlapped. The city circle would be drawn inside the county circle and would be part of both.
ReplyDeleteEDIT taxes are divided between the city and the county based on population.
As far as I know the city does not get tax money from the state. The county gets back a portion of sales tax from the state and can share it with cities/towns. There is state funding for schools but that goes directly to the scholls.
OK. That should be math and schools. Any other mistakes should be considered typos rather than bad spellings.
ReplyDeleteNAgirl thanks for pointing out that CITY RESIDENTS ARE COUNTY RESIDENTS TOO. That point always seems to be lost in these discussions. The Floyd COUNTY government is just as responsible to me as it is to Daniel, and it should behave accordingly.
ReplyDeleteSo who is REALLY paying to scrape Daniel's road and who pays to scrape mine? Let's see, I pay city taxes and county taxes. Daniel pays county taxes.
ReplyDeleteWould you like to re-think your position, Daniel?
Nah, I will still choose to live in the county every time.
ReplyDeleteI've lived in the city all of my life. I can't remember the last time the city scraped the snow off of my street and I live near Hazelwood, New Albany HS and Silver St School. no humor here
ReplyDeleteThis argument sounds like some city folks are envious of the county folks. shaking head in disgust
Moving to the county is starting to appeal to me. I think I'll pack it up move out there. devious smile
Bluegill wrote:
ReplyDelete"There's really no getting around that if we're going to have any sort of reality-based conversation about government spending. There are shared financial consequences to outward growth that can't be ignored."
Can someone page me when the exurbans do so much as attempt to respond to this?
Actually, I meant the part about who is subsidizing who but that's okay.
ReplyDeleteGrowth happens. There are now over 300 million people in America. We can grow out or up. My choice is out.
ReplyDeleteDaniel - are you referring to the obesity epidemic, or population growth?
ReplyDelete