(Note: Rep. Sodrel's column has yet to be archived on-line).
In some mysterious way, it is flattering to have provided a suitable pretext for a campaign speech, as I have been strangely transformed with the publication in the Tribune last week of “America started and is a Christian nation,” a guest column by the noted historian, 9th District Congressman Mike Sodrel.
Plainly, had I not the audacity to dispute the paucity of facts and dubious reasoning offered by the Tribune’s Chris Morris in a similar column espousing the precisely same position, it is highly doubtful that Rep. Sodrel would have taken valuable time away from grappling with the many serious problems facing America and the world in 2006 to trot out the familiar, tired clichés about the Founding Fathers and their theocratic intentions with respect to religion, freedom and the American way of life.
That Rep. Sodrel has done so – that he must opportunistically respond in such a manner to an academic exchange of opinion (well, half of one, at least) in a small-town newspaper – tells us more about the exigencies of Red State politics and the need to bolster the fundamentalist voting bloc in key part of his district in the run-up to an election year than it does about the congressman’s selective reading of history in the context of his acceptance of Jesus Christ as personal campaign manager.
Not that I doubt his sincerity when it comes to personal religious convictions. However, the persuasiveness of his argument is another story entirely.
Whereas Chris “Ed Anger” Morris offers precious few facts of any sort in his “Religion is who we are” column, Rep. Sodrel throws out bright and bouncy clusters of them during the course of a rambling essay running twice the length of my response to Chris’s original rant, but unfortunately, few of the genuine facts are connected to each other, and just as many are anecdotal and utterly irrelevant to the case Rep. Sodrel earnestly seeks to make.
For instance, following a passage in which he cites Article 6 of the U.S. Constitution (“No religious test shall ever be required … ) as evidence of the Founding Fathers’ commitment to allowing “citizens of any faith, or of no faith” to participate in government, Rep. Sodrel proceeds immediately to a denunciation of an unidentified “minority” effort to have “In God We Trust” removed from all American currency.
Rep. Sodrel obviously is implying that these words imprinted on our money are directly related to the Founding Fathers and their Christian wisdom. What he doesn’t tell you is that not until the end of the American Civil War did the phrase “In God We Trust” began to be seen each and every time that a Druid handed a prostitute her fee in coins or greenbacks.
(As a contrarian and an atheist, seeing such a blatant religious advertisement on my cash is only mildly annoying, because when it comes time for me to spend it, my concerns are less with the unknowable deity being blurbed than with my loot’s continued viability as “legal tender for all debts, public or private.”)
(God may or may not be many things, but He is not the Fed.)
Looking around the vicinity of his office in Washington D.C., Rep. Sodrel notices visible signs of our “Christian heritage” everywhere, and to him, these constitute unmistakable evidence that, as John Adams once wrote, “we are a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to govern any other.”
I’d argue that these outward manifestations of generic Christianity tell us a great deal about theories of exterior design, style, ornamentation and the human instinct for public decoration, and that the friezes on the Parthenon provided similar “evidence” of whole panoplies of Gods that have since passed from the scene.
It remains that most of the people you hear advancing the “America as Christian nation” argument unintentionally confuse two distinct considerations, for there is a crucial distinction between believing in God in the most general sense (something that isn’t disturbing), and espousing a specific system of beliefs using God as justification (Christianity, Islam, Judaism and all the shadings of each).
Ask a man on the street whether he believes in the existence of God, and you’ll establish whether or not he’s a theist, strictly speaking. However, theism in and of itself does not provide a clue as to the belief system that follows from his basic recognition of a “higher” power.
He believes in God … but which one?
This is why arguments like Rep. Sodrel’s are ultimately unconvincing to me, because while it is true that most of the Founding Fathers were Christian, and also true that many of them uttered words to this effect at one time or another, the specifics of their respective personal theologies obviously differed as widely as their practical daily political beliefs. We must ask, then, that if they meant for their new enterprise to be “Christian,” exactly what did they have in mind?
Rep. Sodrel duly attempts to answer this question by placing morals and ethics in a necessarily religious (read: Christian) context, but this needn’t be the case. A secular, reality-based ethical system has just as much viability as one dependent on supernatural sanction, although it has the drawback of providing employment for fewer men and women of the cloth.
Finally, even if we assume that the varying Christian beliefs of the Founding Fathers can be woven collectively into a consistent pattern, would this amalgam be of any relevance to the world as it is today?
As Sam Harris points out in his masterful “The End of Faith”:
"Imagine that we could revive a well-educated Christian of the fourteenth century. The man would prove to be a total ignoramus, except on matters of faith. His beliefs about astronomy, geography and medicine would embarrass even a child, but he would know more or less everything there is to know about God. Though he would be considered a fool to think that the earth is the center of the cosmos, or that trepanning (boring holes in the human skull) constitutes a wise medical intervention, his religious ideas would still be beyond reproach. There are two explanations for this: either we perfected our religious understanding of the world a millennium ago – while our knowledge on all other fronts was still hopelessly inchoate – or religion, being the mere maintenance of dogma, is one area of discourse that does not admit of progress."
The same can be said of the 18th-century resident of the United States.
Isn’t it strange that the vast majority of Americans eternally clamoring for a return to the values of the Founding Fathers conveniently ignore other accepted teachings of the era, some of which we now understand as vile and repugnant … even, heaven forbid, evil in the ethical sense?
Where to begin with the recitation of human practices and conditions not merely tolerated by the churches of the past, but sanctioned and encouraged?
In brief, to name just three: Torture was gleefully perpetuated, as in the case of the witch hunts. There was the systematic persecution and slaughter of Native Americans. Most horrible of all, the institution of slavery was built, expanded and abetted with the cooperation of Christian churches of all denominations.
Were most Americans of the Civil War period Christians? Yes, they were.
Did any more than a tiny number of them, both north and south, really believe that African-Americans were human beings with souls?
No, they didn’t.
The Christian precepts of abolitionism in the sense of human slavery differed little from those that might have been cited concurrently as justification for abolishing cruelty to draft animals.
Exactly what part of this example of the “faith of our fathers” and our “Christian heritage” is relevant to conditions in our day and age – for that matter, to any day and age?
Predictably, Rep. Sodrel neither touches upon these abominations, nor does he consider their implications in the realm of faith, although he does manage to pay brief lip service to the concept of tolerance:
“In this age of tolerance, one would think the minority could show some tolerance for the majority.”
Such is Rep. Sodrel’s viewpoint from the luxury box seats at his exurban mega-church, and he expands on these sentiments with this, the congressman’s one true gem of misplaced rhetoric:
“No one is asking the minority to approve of, promote, or practice the majority faith. We only ask them to put up with us.”
To put up with you?
Speaking only for myself, this is something I’m quite willing to do, at least so long as the “majority faith” is not selectively defined as the evangelistic dogma of a valued and targeted segment of the electorate, and it is not cynically deployed as an excuse to rewrite the rules that apply to all of us in such a manner as to make such a specific religious interpretation into the law of the land – a land that I, a card-carrying member of the non-religious minority, inhabit with a certainty borne of Constitutional fact that Constitutional rights were meant to apply to me and mine as well as to Rep. Sodrel and his partisan voting bloc.
Have “fact and faith … coexisted in America for over 230 years,” as Rep. Sodrel writes?
Uneasily at best, and the proposition itself is debatable, but in their arguments thus far, both the congressman and the newspaper editor have freely sacrificed the facts to bolster the faith.
Why?
NAC,
ReplyDeleteI am glad to see that you at least acknowledge that the majority of the founding fathers did have a Christian worldview, even if it may look much different than it would today. (although I disagree with that thought)
I agree that the underlying construction of the Constitution was in fact to protect all view points and all beliefs, not just Christianity.
Just as you cannot separate your atheist worldview on how you think and make decisions, neither could the founding fathers. That is why most people use the terminology that the US was founded on Judeo-Christian principles.
Logically, our knowledge being different from that 230 years ago has no impact on the argument that the country was or was not founded on Christian principles. These are two distinct arguments.
But acknowledging that the founding fathers espoused a Christian worldview is much more logical to the argument and lends support to the fact that it was founded on Christian principles.
It is a mistake to “throw the baby out with the bath water”. Your examples of Christians acting badly are unfair and an incomplete representation of many positive influences basic Christian Theistic ideology has and continues to improved behaviors it continues to produce.
ReplyDeleteYour argument is basically, “Look, men are stupid and evil, therefore there is no God.” It is a directional confusion. Your portraying only the worst side of the Christian religion by putting mankind’s “stink” on God. Remember, Christianity is a relationship between God and mankind. Mankind is naturally challenged at healthy long-lasting relationships.
Your multiple sightings of Christian men behaving un-Godly, means you already have ideas of what acting “Good” or “Godly” might look like. You claim to be an atheist, but your discussion shows you may be more agnostic. The evidence is your finely articulated identification of an extreme discrepancy between mankind’s behavior and “Godly” behavior. I admit hypocrisy is alive and well in the church, because the church is at most 50% human. If all you have learned from the church is its hypocrisy, you have only received the dirty water, not “the baby”.
Your passionate response leads to the conclusion that you would agree with the statement “things aren’t the way they are supposed to be”. Yet, the fact that you know “things aren’t the way they are supposed to be” doesn’t mean that you know the way things are supposed to be in perfect Christianity.
You stated,
“there is a crucial distinction between believing in God in the most general sense (something that isn’t disturbing), and espousing a specific system of beliefs using God as justification (Christianity, Islam, Judaism and all the shadings of each).”
Is like saying that…religion can be, but it can’t be—relevant, personal, with obligation or duty, specific, meaningful, real, true, taken seriously, known, logical…
It reminds me of the title of a really good read…Moral Relativism, Feet Firmly Planted in Mid-Air by Beckwith and Koukl.
This sortie shook up the henhouse, eh? Be wary of "really good reads," as they seldom are.
ReplyDeleteUpdate! (off-topic)
La Rosita is open for business
Stephanie, it's none of that.
ReplyDeleteBear in mind that my major concern in all this is not Christianity and God from the perspective of the individual believer, but from the point of view of a non-Christian secular observer whose government supposedly protects his interests as well as yours.
I don't believe there is any necessary connection between the notion of a deity (wishful thinking at best, in my view) and belief systems like Christianity.
Furthermore, I believe that there is no necessary connection between ethical behavior and any particular belief system.
However, to each his or her own ... until it comes to people who want to apply a particular set of beliefs to all of us. That's when I must disagree.
Mike Sodrel writes that I must "put up with this." I beg to differ, and will continue to do so.
My basic tenet on religous beliefs is that one should live their life as they believe, not how the one or the many force others to live their lives.
ReplyDeleteIf the basis of a decision is that the bible or some diety says something, then follow it personally and leave others alone.
I agree with Stephanie on the idea that bad people claiming to be Christians does not make true Christianity bad. After all, religion carries with it some power. Obviously, people are going to try to cash in on that power (just like modern politicians trying to pull a few religious heartstrings in order to manipulate some votes in their favor). The bible said that Satan would disquise himself as an angel of light and this is, in my opinion, his most effective effort at turning people away from "the light".
ReplyDeleteHOWEVER the fact that many people/groups/nations have claimed to be christian and used that in order to to empower them to do more evil IS relavent. It does not disprove Christianity by any stretch of the imagination, but Roger is right to bring it up. Men can claim to be Christian, but that does not make them Christian or even trustworthy.
I'll entrust my country with my tax money, my legal protection, and the running of libraries and math classes. But no, I will not entrust it with my soul or empower it to define and dictate my beliefs or my children’s beliefs. No true Christian would hand their relationship with God over to the local tax collector and confuse Caesar with God.
When we ask ourselves "is this a Christian nation", then in many ways, the question itself has as much significance as the answer. For, the moment this earthly nation, our country and government, is defined in any way by our religion, the government becomes empowered with the ability to, in turn, define our religious lives, at least in some ways. Any movement, any decision in government and in law must be made with one eye on the horizon and on what sort of precedent that change will set. The moment we plant the smallest seed of one state religion, we must face the future implications of state hands being in our religion and being given such strings to pull.
Instead of trying to generalize the root religion of our country, perhaps we should be remembering WHY those christians came here in the first place, and many of them came here seeking religious freedoms and a great land where bureaucrats did not presume to interfear with their religion.
After all, even we Christians don’t necessarily agree on who God is. Some would say that God is the father of Christ, some that God is Christ, or still others that God is some mysterious amalgam of Christ, his father, and of his father’s power (aka the Holy Ghost). To one Christian, calling Jesus “God” is an insult to God and Jesus and to everything Jesus spent his earthly life teaching. To another, that could be the most fundamental part of their faith. Even if we were all theists, even if all Americans were Christians, which brand of Christianity would we be? Trying to chose one idea of God or another to be our national religion is just ridiculous. Picking a state bird or which flower to put on your state seal is one thing. For the government to try and name one religion to represent all of us, however, is an insult to the people and to God himself. God says who God is, not a tally of votes and a few politicians.
PS: I realize that my arguments only address Christians, not the vast numbers of other belief systems in our country, but (again) it is the Christians that politicians are currently manipulating in order to further the subject agenda, and thus the Christians that I think need to be reminded of the importance of separation of church and state.
ReplyDeleteI suppose your preacher could tell you how to vote (although I think that's an abuse of trust/power), but the mayor can't tell you where to pray.
ReplyDeleteInteresting point, but I'm not sure I catch the relevance of it.
NAC
ReplyDeleteFirst, I want to thank you for receiving my response in the spirit to which it was sent. Many good men have died so that we may enjoy free speech. The passion and emotions of your original response are understandable, but the evidence and conclusions are questionable.
A belief in the supernatural realm is rational, but it isn’t substantiated through purely natural explanation. There are excellent arguments that support the belief that a supernatural realm is rational. Admittedly, the exact nature of the realm and any personal entity in the realm, or the entity’s interaction with mankind needs to happen another day.
Belief in one good entity (deity) is a logical, therefore necessary, connection for (human) free moral agents to be optimally consistent in “good and truthful” decision making—basically, doing right things for right reasons.
If Truth is determined by the “voices of many”, (Socrates) and the “voices of many” is valued for being diverse (evidenced in the popularity of multicultural studies and moral relativism, etc.) then truly knowable material and spiritual Truth will be elusive and/or impossible. Ultimately, Truth claims become a battle of “rights claims”, (NAC vs Sodrel) when the natural world is the only acceptable source of “knowable” truth.
Respectfully, my mind and my intuition (telos, heart, soul, and consciousness) need a more comprehensive explanation of Truth. Our science-minded culture has a tendency to determine
“what exists (or doesn’t exist in the case of a deity),
on what is (scientifically) known and verifiable.”
This is very different from determining
what we know from what exists.
Brandon,
ReplyDeleteYou wrote…
"I think it is disingenuous to slap down such a breezy statement, since it is the logical building block of the rest of your post.
That is, FAITH (in the Christian evangelical conception of God) is the building block of your entire argument...
Breezy? Well then let's not blow past the issue.
I have excellent reason and arguments to support my belief in a supernatural realm. This issue, itself, is the best place to begin discussions, because it is a major dividing issue. It is the issue that makes agreement in many peripheral issues logically non-reconcilable.
I personally do not enjoy conflict; yet, I accept it, because I have hope that addressing disagreement might bring more order, more agreement and less chaos—make the discussion more effective. I think you would agree effective discussion is the goal of rational discourse. Right?
You are correct that I am toning down my response. I am guilty of putting aside my specific faith claims for the purpose of intelligent discussion with obvious “thinkers”. I am putting energy into taking "the heart" out of it.
I share my thoughts of specific faith claims more openly with my friends and family that accept ideas that have supernatural ontology, or if the opportunity arises with a non-friend, of course.(smile)
The Blog’s topics are diverse and dynamic. The ideas go in many directions. You accuse me of being stealth, but I am trying for some common ground, common reference, sort of like “synchronizing watches”.
So, back to the issue…
I accept the arguments and evidence that support the idea of reality that there is a supernatural realm. Those who are strongly influenced by the worldview called “naturalism” do not. This issue is at the core of that which directs both belief/disbelief in a “potential” entity interacting from the supernatural realm, and implications it logically has on one’s life/soul today and eternally.
You might disagree with the conclusion that "the acceptance or denial of a supernatural realm is key to the discussion", but a denial would be irrational. If I gave you a good argument, evidence, reason to think there is a supernatural realm would you consider them and perhaps modify your “worldview”? What if I gave you two? Three? Four?...
These are a few evidences common to the support of naturalistic thinking, that haven’t proven adequate in swaying my ideas of reality, but I am listening to reason.
*disbelief (issue of the heart)
*opinion (issue of the mind)
*Inadequate (not absent) empirical scientific evidence
*Personally experienced empirical evidence of the hypocrisy of mankind
*A personal experience with moral evil
*Fear of being shamed by the university’s cultural intellectuals highly
influenced epistemologically by naturalism (demanding explanation
from purely natural causes)
Brandon,
ReplyDeleteNo one here is trying to convert you, pressure you or anything else. This is just intellectual discourse that you are free to agree, disagree or ignore. Why does just discussing the topics create such emotions?
Whether you believe, don't believe, attend church etc. is solely your decision. But rational discourse should be acceptable by all.
1/25/06
ReplyDeleteThis “style of argumentation” is more formally called a linear argument. I don’t know how to be more fundamental than to start where ideas of reality divide. It is as Maria in the Sound of Music sings, “let’s start at the very beginning, it’s a very good place to start…”
Danainnewalbany could probably teach us how historical documents are tested for historical authenticity. I was leaning toward philosophical and scientific evidence that support a supernatural-(historical)-realm and the necessity of an uncaused-cause.
Again, I am guilty of what you say, “being a bad evangelical”, for I am trying to reason with you, I am not trying to make emotional, sentimental appeals to your heart. My goal is not to “spout” arguments, “argumentatively”, but to discuss reason, evidence and logic that support a supernatural realm. I accept your declining the discussion.
Hmm, well, perhaps this is the ideal juncture at which the respectful administrator (uh, me) reminds Apolo of our policy with respect to identity.
ReplyDeleteHave we been introduced? You may divulge to the group, or to me personally. Thanks.
Dr. Dan knows the address.
Guys, don't you get it?
ReplyDeleteBrandon is from an evangelical background, and though I suspect he would now disavow the Evangelical tag, his faith hasn't wavered. I join in his objections.
Both of us KNOW these techniques. We were trained in them from the earliest ages. Brandon has added sterling credentials as a history graduate student and further credentials in argumentation as a top law student. Your trying to "explain" to the professor.
As an undergraduate, I had the pleasure of studying under one of the foremost scholars in the field of constitutional law. His text was the premier undergraduate text. During one class session, I struggled to make a point to this professor, who happened to be blind. In frustration, I exclaimed "Don't you see?"
His response: "No, Mr. Smith, in fact I do not."
I am a believer, sanctioned as well by the Great Commission. And I agree that much of what passes for debate here is transparently textbook apologetics and testimonial witnessing. Not that I don't enjoy reading it. It brings back memories. But I don't think it is effective if it comes across as patronizing.
Sorry, guys. I know you are sincere. I sympathize. But you're not doing the cause any good when you get called out on strikes, even if you are swinging for the fences.
All4Word,
ReplyDeleteNot to be disagreeing, but we do “get it”. The title of the Blog for this day was “Joining in Prayer….”
This is a religious topic related to the government. The discourse thus far has been for thought and discussion. There are many readers, and I talk to them every day, that enjoy the blogs but may not contribute to the comments. They enjoy hearing the differing viewpoints and it allows them to think more deeply.
For intellectualism to be such an important component of this particular site, I find it difficult to understand why commenting with a Christian perspective becomes so offensive.
Your comment “But I don't think it is effective if it comes across as patronizing.” is noted and I certainly do not want to be patronizing. But how words are received is often different than the intent in which they are sent.
For many other people who do not have the opportunity or intellectual connections to discuss these topics, many tell me that it is beneficial and helpful in their thought and understanding. I believe that is a “good thing”. None I have talked to feel patronized.
I know I am not going to change yours or Brandon’s opinions and I am comfortable with that. But it may reach others that are reading and I am comfortable with that as well. This discourse gives readers multiple viewpoints and is not forcing any of them to conversion, church attendance, baptism, or any change in their lifestyles. I hope they just continue to think for themselves and reach their own conclusions. That’s “Fair and Balanced”.
Your last comment “Sorry, guys. I know you are sincere. I sympathize. But you're not doing the cause any good when you get called out on strikes, even if you are swinging for the fences.”
Again, this is your opinion and I certainly respect it, but many other readers do not necessarily agree. Many more people read these blogs than actually contribute.
Intellectual discourse is always worthwhile and the hope is that we can “agree to disagree, agreeably.”
Whoa, Roger, looks like you started a nice discussion here. You may be interested to know that I decided to jump into the fray between you, Morris and Sodrel. All of you are mentioned in this week's article, but Sodrel's the one who isn't going to like it. :)
ReplyDeleteShould be posted on the Trib's website this afternoon. It solicited my very first fan phone call. :)
Oh, and I also give helpful advice to atheists on how to spend God-tainted U.S. money. Hope you find it helpful. ;)
Debbie, it appeared on Thursday, and I enjoyed it.
ReplyDeleteI'd already submitted a response for publication. It mentioned the "In God We Trust" aspect (yours was far better than mine), but I did not have the opportunity to point out that yours had been published. Perhaps they'll do that before mine goes up.
Thanks for the note and for your column.